oversight

Audit and Legal Services, 1943-1983: A Women's Perspective--Interview With Margaret L. Macfarlane, Geraldine M. Rubar, and Stella B. Shea

Published by the Government Accountability Office on 1990-04-01.

Below is a raw (and likely hideous) rendition of the original report. (PDF)

               United   States   General   Accounting   Office
               History Progran I
GAO

April   1990
               Audit and Legal
               Services, 1943-1983:
               A Women’s Perspective
               Interview Wi t ;h Margaret L. Macfarlane,
               Geraldine M. Rubar, and SteUa R. Shea
               United   States   General   Accounting   Office   /+FfB/2

               History Program




April   1990
               Audit and Legal
               Services, 1943-1983:
               A Women’s Perspective
               Interview With Margaret L. Macfarlane,
               Geraldine M. Rubar, and Stella B. Shea
Published by the United States General Accounting Office,
Washington, D.C., 1990




Page ii                                                     GAO/OFl@OH
Preface


          The General Accounting Office (GAO) was established by the Budget and
          Accounting Act of 1921. Since then, new legislation and modified poli-
          cies have been adopted t.hat enable GAOto meet the needs of the Con-
          gress as it comes to grips with increasingly complex governmental
          programs and activities.

          GAOoperates a History Program within its Office of Policy to ensure that
          the basis for policy decisions and other important events are systemati-
          cally recorded for posterity. The program should benefit the Congress,
          future Comptrollers General, other present and future C;AOofficials,
          (;i\O’s in-house training efforts, and scholars of public administration.

          The primary sour-cclof historical data is the written record in official
          government files. A vital supplement contributing to a better under-
          standing of past actions is the oral history component of the program.
          Key governmental officials who were in a position to make decisions and
          redirect C;AO’Sefforts arc being interviewed to record their observations
          and impressions. Modern techniques make it possible to record their
          statements on videotapes or audiotapes that can be distributed to a
          wider audience, supplemented by written transcripts.

          Mrs. Margaret L. Macfarlane, Ms. Geraldine M. Kubar. and Mrs. Stella R
          Shea served NO in various capacities and assumed important roles, pri-
          marily in the Office of t,he General Counsel. On March 15, 1989, a pre-
          sent and a former <;,\o official (see p. v) interviewed these three women
          on videotape at GAO headquarters in Washington, D.C., to discuss their
          (;AO activities, which tlxtended from 1943 to 1983, and to provide also
          some insight into th(b role of women in government during those years.
          This document is a transcript of the videotape. Although a number of
          editorial changes have been made, G~O has tried to preserve the flavor
          of the spoken word.

          Copies of the transcript arc available to GAOofficials and other inter-
          ested parties.




          Charles A. Bowsher
          Comptroller General
          of the tlnited States



          Page iii                                                       GAO/OF-IO-OH
 Biographical Information


                             Mrs. Margaret I,. Macfarlane served in the Office of the General Counsel
                             of the IJS. General Accounting Office (GAO) from 1945 to 1971. She
                             received her law degree from the Xat,ional TJnivcrsity Law School in
                             1941 and passed the D.C. bar examination. Throughout her career in
                             c;.w, Mrs. Macfarlane was heavily involved in legislative research. She
                             also participated in the General Counsel’s recruiting and training pro-
                             grams for lawyers. From 19W until her retirement, in 1971, Mrs. Macfar-
                             lane was Chief of CXO’SLegal Keference Services.




Margaret     L. Macfarlane



                             Ms. Geraldine M. Rubar served on GAO’Sstaff from 1943 to 1947 and
                             from 1948 t.o 1983. Her early years in C;AOwere spent in the Transporta-
                             tion Section of the Claims Division, which in 1948 became the Transpor-
                             tation Division. Ms. Rubar graduated from Columbia Law School in ,fune
                             19.53, having previously passed the bar examination in December 1952.
                             In 1954, she joined c;no’s Office of the General Counsel, assuming
                             increasing responsibilities that. led to a top assignment, in 1973 to that
                             office’s newly creakd Special Studies and Analysis Group.




                             Mrs. Stella B. Shea served (;AO from 1948 until her retirement in 1980.
                             Starting out as a typist, she progressed rapidly, becoming in 1950 the
                             principal support staff person to Robert F. Keller as he assumed increas-
                             ing responsibilities, including the position of General Counsel and finally
                             that of Deputy Comptroller General. Mrs. Shea’s exemplary c:nt~service
                             brought her in touch with the many GAOorganizational units and helped
                             to provide a close and effective relationship between top (;N) exccutivtls
                             and the rest of (;AO’Sstaff.




Stella   B. Shta




                             Page iv
Intmviewers


Henry Eschwege   in GAO under three Comptrollers General, He held increasing responsibil-
                 ities in the former Civil Division and became the Director of GAO'S
                 Resources and Economic Development Division upon its creation in
                 1972. He remained the Director after the Division was renamed the
                 Community and Economic Development Division. In 1982, he was
                 appointed Assistant Comptroller General for Planning and Reporting.


                 Roger R. Trask became Chief Historian of GAO in July 1987. After receiv-
Roger R. Trask   ing his Ph.D. in History from the Pennsylvania State IJniversity, he
                 taught between 19% and lR8C)at several colleges and universities,
                 including Macalester College and the [Jniversity of South Florida; at
                 both of these institutions, he served as Chairman of the Department of
                 History. IIe is the author or editor of numerous books and articles,
                 mainly in the foreign policy and defense areas. He began his career in
                 t,he federal government as Chief Historian of the U.S. Nuclear Regula-
                 tory Commission (1977-1978). In September 1980, he became the Dep-
                 uty Hist.orian in the Historical Office, Office of the Secretary of Defense,
                 whcrc htb remained until his appointment in (;A().




                 Page v                                                          GAO,‘OP-1O-Ol-I
Contents


Preface                                                                             .
                                                                                   111


Biographical                                                                       iv
Information
Interviewers
                         Henry Eschwgc
                         Roger R. Trask

Interview With                                                                      1
Margaret Macfarlane,     Introduction                                               1
                         Biographical Data                                          1
Geraldine Rubar, and     Positions Held in GAO                                      7
Stella Shea, March 15,   Robert F. Keller’s Service to GAO                         1Fj
1989                     The Early Years in GAO ITndcr Lindsay Warren (1940.       17
                              1963)
                         The Campbell F:r-a( 1X54- 1965)                           25
                         The Staats Era                                            32
                         Evolution of Relations With the Congress, Agencies, and   38
                              Media
                         Services Provided by Legislative Reference IJnits
                         Comments on GAO Officials
                         Reflections and Thoughts About GAO
                         Conclusion
                                     ___ - ..--... I
Appendix
                         Videotape Cross-reference

Index




                         Page vi
                ---.. ...-
Abbreviations
                fi
                )
                F
-




-               I




    Page viii
Interview With Margaret Maefarlane, Geraldine
Rtibar, and Stella Shea, March 15,1989

Introduction
Mr. Eschwege        Good morning and welcome to the General Accounting Office here in
                    Washington, D.C., on this March 15, 1989, the Ides of March. We’re very
                    happy to have you three ladies with us this morning, all former GAO
                    employees. I first want to introduce Mrs. Margaret Macfarlane. Xext to
                    her is Ms. Geraldine Rubar. And to my very right is Mrs. Stella Shea.

                    With me today is Dr. Roger Trask, who is the Chief Historian of the
                    General Accounting Office. We’re here to talk about the period in time
                    that spans from about 1943 to 1983, when you collectively served in
                    GAO,a 4O-year period. The focus will be particularly on the Office of the
                    General Counsel; on the activities in the Transportation Division when
                    we did have it, in I;A~; and, in talking to Stella [Shea] on one of the great
                    giants of c;Ao-Bob [Robert F.] Keller, who served so ably in GAO, first in
                    the Office of the General Counsel [OGC],then headed up that office as
                    General Counsel, and finally served as Deputy Comptroller General.

                    So, if we can start with you, Mrs. Mac, as we call Mrs. Macfarlane, you
                    might just very briefly tell us where you were born, your education, and
                    experience before you came to GAO in 1945.



Biographical Data
Mm Macfarlane       It’s a pleasure to be here and a pleasure to participate in this program. I
                    was born in 1916 in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin, and that’s where I retired
                    with my husband after my service in the General Accounting Office. It’s
                    a small town in the south-central part of Wisconsin between Madison
                    and Milwaukee.

                    I graduated from high school in 1934, and at the invitation of my
                    mother’s brother, Eugene C. Miller, an investigator for GAO, I went to
                    Washington to get a ,job. Although I had planned to go on to college, that
                    wasn’t possible in those days of the Depression.

                    When I arrived in Washington, my uncle took me to the Department of
                    Agriculture. At that time, the Agricultural Adjustment Agency was in
                    operation and it was hiring clerks. So I was hired as a clerk-typist at
                    $1,440 a year and went to work on June 2 1, 1934. They assigned me to
                    the Milk Division because I came from Wisconsin and they were sure I



                    Page 1
Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
March 15,1989




                     .__.__.- ..“-
knew all about dairy farming. They soon learned that I didn’t, know
much about it.

At the same time, I enrolled at night school in typing and shorthand at
Strayer Business Collcgc. A year later, before the Agricultural Adjust-
mcnt Act was declared unconstitutional, I had the opportunity to t,rans-
fer to the National Archives as a ,junior clerk-stenographer at the same
salary. I think I was the 37th employee hired at the Archives at that
time. That was in Sept,ember, I believe, and I enrolled at George Wash-
ington IJniversity at the same time, planning to take a law course.

At the Archives, I was fortunate, after a short time in a typing pool, to
be assigned to the Office of Administrative Secretary. Thad Page of
Xorth Carolina was the chief. He had come from Senator [?JosiahW.] Hai-
Icy’s office and was responsible for the Archives’ annual reports and its
bud~et,justit’icat.ions. It was then that I think I got, a touch of experience
in legislation, which I happily got more involved in here at the General
Accouming Office.

Occasionally, I substituted as a receptionist in the Archivist’s office. The
Archivist was Dr. I<. D. W. Connor of North Carolina, a friend of Prcsi-
dent [Franklin D.] Roosevelt’s and an eminent hist,orian from t.he IJniver-
sit,y of North Carolina. I mentioned the relationship with President
Roosevelt because. as a young clerk, I was sent on several occasions to
t,he corner st,orc to get packages of Chestcrficld cigarettes for Dr. Connor
to take to the Prcsidcnt. *Just as Stclla Shea had so many great opportu-
nities to meet many important government officers in the legislative and
executive branches during her years with Mr. Keller at C;AO:I have mem-
ories of the early years at the Archives, where I had opportunities, but
to a much lesser extent, to meet many congressional people as librarians
and historians came t.o SW the Archivist.

Dr. Connor was a particularly gracious host. He would always invite the
women to sit in his chair, and they were always very happy to do so.
During the 7 years at the Archives, I managed to pass some in-house
requirements to get. a professional “grade 1” rating. I was fortunate t.o
work on many intcrcsting record collections of World War I from the
Shipping. Board to IIoov&s Russian relief efforts and the Maritime
Commission.

Finally, in 1941: I received an LL.II. from the National University Law
School, and having passed the D.C. bar exam, I wanted to get into a legal



Page 2
               Intmrview With Margaret Macfarlane?
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15,1989




               field. I went, to the Depart.ment of ,Justice for an interview with an assis-
               tant attorney general, who was one of my law professors. He said that I
               could be hired as a typist in a legal office. To mt:, that, seemed like such a
               demotion from the professional status t.hat I had earned. So I went back
               to the National Arrhit’cs after t.he intcrvicbv, appreciating my grade 1
               job cbvenmore.

               In September 1942, through a law school friend, I learned of a position
               at the ISoard of Economic Warfare, and I transferred there into sort of a
               paralegal position. From 1942 to 1945: I worked on interpretations of
               rcgulat.ions in t,hcaE:xporl Control Kcgnlation DcpartmtW. The highlight
               of t.his brief ernployrucnt was that I met one of the officers. Archibald
               Macfarlanc, jvho later, after scrvicta in China. returm~d to Washington,
               and WCmarric~d in 1947.

               During my law schot~l days. I had the great good fortune to make friends
               with srvc~ral attorneys-I~lanchc Margason Wilcox. Thomas W. East.-
               man, and Ernest II. l&vies. I think it was Tom ISast.manwho told me
               that G.W was hiring iittorncys in the Digest Sec*tionof t,he Office of the
               General Counsel. Tom IS&man introduced mc to !xo’s Wallace I’rcscott,
               who intcbrviewcd m(:, and on May 29, 1945. I was at last hired as an
               attorney on a transfer from the Board of Economic Warfare to (;xo.

               I might add that. from 1934 nnt,il my rc‘tirement, I was fort,nnate in never
               having a break in government service, which meant. something in t,hose
               days.

Mr. Eschwege   Maybe now Gerry [I<ubar] will want to fill us in on her bacskground. I
               know yon czamct,o (;.\o twice, first in 1943 and aft.er a break in service
               you camt back in IO4#.

Ms. Rubar      I was born in t,hc cmmtry in northern New York in Lewis County, which
               has been considcrcd to bc the wildest c:ounty in the state in terms of the
               lack of cities; it had only very small towns. I went to college in Albany at
               the NW York State C~ollcgcfor Tcachcrs. \vhicahis now t,he State IJnivcr-
               sity of Kew York at Albany. The college had a t.otal student body trf
               probably no more than 2.500 and maybe not that, many in my day. Now,
               of course, it has 12,000 or so: and it’s become B great research
               university.

               I am very proud of the fact that it was not a tcacaherscollege but a col-
               lege for teachers. Thchidea was that. people would previously have gone
Interview With Margaret Macfarlanr,
Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
March 15. 1989




to a normal school-1 had not-and then would come there aftxr doing
some teaching and would get a liberal arts or a science degree.

When I graduated in 1942, I came to Washington to stay with my sister,
who was having a baby. The only job interviews I had were for jobs I
didn’t want. When I went back home? it was a cast of if you get a job,
you take it; it was August. when I went home. My father said, “Stay
home a year,” but when you’ve worked 4 years in college so that you
can earn your own living, you want to do that.

Anyway: I ended up taking a teaching job in a tiny hamlet. Actually, the
school was a few miles outside of Albany, down in Columbia County,
Sew York, which is north of New York City. We wet-c 10 miles from the
Massachusetts lint. It, was a rural school. and the war was on, of course;
I really spent a miserable year. I was teaching American IIistory and
English to high scnhooljuniors and freshmen, I had a student in my junior
English class who could write her own name and do it beautifully. She
would put her name and her grade and the date up in the corner of the
paper and then you would see all this lovely paper filled with writing.

When you came to look at it, it was nothing but m’s and n’s and t’s above
and below the line, but not, one intelligible word except “the.” She grad-
uated a year later with a school diploma, and this was the kind of situa-
tion I faced. I had done my practice teaching in the Milnc School in
Albany, which was a private school attached to the college. I had stu-
dents there wit,h 1Qs from 60 up to 140, but even people wit.11a 60 IQ
could read and writcb.

When I talked with the principal of the rural school, his whole attitude
was that they had to keep them in school and keep them happy so that
they would get the state aid money, which they got on a per pupil basis.
The principal said, “We have the best physical plant, in New York state,
and we want to keep it, that way.” So I decided t,hat this had to end and
that I was not going back there in spite of’thc principal’s objections. In
fact, he would come into my class and embarrass me in front of the chil-
dren by trying to Ixrsuade me t,o stay.

My sister and brother-in-law were living in Washington and I decided to
come here. I was admitted to night school to get a master’s degree. I
thought I would like to teach, but if I was going to teach at all, it had t,o
be on a college level.




Page 4
Interview With Margaret Macfarlanc,
Geraldine Rubar, and SteHa Shea,
March 15,1989




I applied for and was accepted to do substitute teaching in the District
of Columbia school system. I came in August, and my sister’s landlady,
who was an old Washingtonian, said, “Why don’t you go to one of those
government offices and get a job? There’s one over in Friendship
IIeights, just a few blocks away. ” She made the arrangements. The war
was going on, and everyone was renting rooms, and someone’s secretary
rented a room in her house.

So she made an appointment for me to see this young woman’s boss. I
got dressed up in my suit and gloves and hat and went over for an inter-
view. The young lady kept asking me, could I “taap?” I thought, “What
kind of place have I come to?”

Finally, she spelled it for me, T-Y-P-E; she was from Texas. A man inter-
viewed me. After I told him my background, he asked me what kind of a
job I would like. I explained what I thought I could do. I said, “Well,
maybe I could be a file clerk.” What he said to me was, “A file clerk with
your background?” He went on to say that they had blacks to do that
kind of work.

1 had been shaking in my interview up to this point. I got out of my chair
and said, “I didn’t come here to hear that kind of language. I’m leaving.”
So he said, “Oh, calm down, I didn’t mean to say that; we can give you a
wonderful job as a transportation specialist. You’ll have a carpet on
your floor. You’ll have messengers bringing tariffs to you.” To me, at
that time, a “tariff” was an economic barrier between countries. I didn’t
quite understand this, but then he told me the salary was $1,800 a year.

Since I had been teaching school for $1,250, plus a $75 cost-of-living
allowance, that sounded very good. I must say that I had been a lawyer
in GAO’SGeneral Counsel’s office about, 5 years before I ever got a carpet
on my floor.

Anyway, that is how I came to work in GAO, and after the first day that I
worked: I decided to quit. I had to come downtown to the old Pension
Building to go through the orientation and then go back out to McLean
Gardens, where the Transportation Division was. A woman came up to
me after I’d been assigned a desk and said, “Freight or passenger?”

I really didn’t know what to say, so I said “freight.” I was handed a
stack of vouchers with bills of lading attached to them and a red pencil
and a green pencil. With the green pencil, I made a check by the voucher



Page 5
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stda Shea,
               March 15.1989




               number in the right corner, and with the red pencil, I checked the appro-
               priation number or something else in the left corner and turned them
               over and did the next, one, and that’s what I did all afternoon.

               So when I went home, I said to my sister, “This is not for me. I’m quit-
               ting. It’s ridiculous.” And she told my brother-in-law when he came
               home, and I explained it to him. He said, “You have to stay at least 2
               weeks because it would look bad on your record. You can’t quit the first
               day.”

               By the time the 2 weeks were up, I was in a training class to learn to be a
               freight rate examiner, and I stayed until they fired me in 1947.

Mr. Ekchwege   We’ll get to that firing in a little while, but now we come to Stella.

Mrs. ~Shea     I was born in Wilkes Harre, Pennsylvania. It wasn’t a small t.own-
               85,000 population. It was a coal-mining town, and all our fathers
               worked in the coal mines. Our parents spoke little or no English, but
               they insisted that all the children go to school, and almost all of us grad-
               uated from high school; I graduated in 1937. *Jobswere scarce, practi-
               cally nonexistent.

               I went to I don’t know how many offices, stating that I would be an
               asset to them, but there were no openings. We see all t.hese signs today
               saying “Help Wanted.” In those days, all the windows had signs saying
               “No IIelp Wanted.” Finally, my high school typing and shorthand
               teacher referred me to a gentleman who had an automobile finance com-
               pany office. IIc hired me at $1 a day, 5 days a week, from 7:30 to 6
               o’clock.

               During the war, I met a gentleman in this automobile finance company
               who had many friends at a commercial bank. When the boys went to the
               war, 1 was recommended to the President of the bank, and he hired me
               as his secretary. After several months, they needed someone to be a
               commercial teller, so they put me at the window, and I was there until
               after the war.

               When the boys returned from the war, I was displaced as a teller. I left
               the bank at that time because Paul Shea had also returned from the war
               and we were married. We came to the District of Columbia so Paul could
               attend accounting school at night and work during the day. I went to the
               Civil Service Commission and applied for employment.



               Page 6
                        Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                        Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                        March 15, 1989




Mr. Eschwege            Was Paul from Wilkes ljarre, too?

Mrs. Shea                Yes. He graduated in 1935 with my brother ,Johnny: who became a
                        judge. My mother did lots of campaigning to get my brother John elected
                        judge. She spoke very little English, as I said earlier, but she went to all
                        the neighbors and said, “Please vote for my ,John;” .John was elected
                        many, many times.

                        The woman at t.he Civil Service Commission said to mc, “The General
                        Accounting Office just up the street is hiring people; why don’t you go
                        there‘?” So I came to t,he General Accounting Office, being somewhat
                        bewildered. I went to the personnel office, and Ms. Katherine Forbes
                        interviewed me and hired me.

                        This was in December of 1948. She gave me a test, and she hired me and
                        said, “You will have to take a Civil Service test! but we’ll put you on the
                        rolls.” Mr. Lyle Fisher [Eldwin t. Fisher, GIW’SGeneral Counsel] put me
                        in the typing pool, where I stayed until November of 1950. One aftor-
                        noon, Mr. Keller and Mr. \liert,z came into Mr. 1,yle Fisher’s office.

                        I had no idea they wer? considering me for a position, but they went. in
                        to SW Mr. Fisher, and Mr. Fisher came out and asked me to come into his
                        office. I went in and Mr. Keller said, “Wcl’d like you to work for us in the
                        Office of the Assistants to the Comptroller General.” I learned later that
                        Mr. Ralph Casey, Associate General Counsel, had recommended me to
                        Mr. Keller. I stayed wit.h Mr. Keller from 1950 until 1980.

Mr. Eschwege            We’ll get to that some more a little bit later. Mrs. Mac, very briefly, let’s
                        hear about the various positions you held up until the time you retired.



Positions Held in GAO
Mrs. Macfarlane         Well, from 1945 to 1947, I was in the Digest Suction, located on the sec-
                        ond floor of the Pension Building. There were attorneys, legal clerks,
                        and clerical staff in our section. Ml. Robert Rumizen and .John Martini
                        were assigned to review the digest, work. Mr. Wallace Prescott, of course,
                        was our chief.

                        I had been in the section for only a very few weeks when Mr. Brewster,
                        an attorney who was the editor of the annual decision volumes and
                        Lvhose service predated (;N left on a vacation. Mr. Prescott asked me to


                        Page 7
Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
March 15, 1989




get the material ready for the printing of the volume at GM [Government
Printing Office]. Mr. Hrewster had developed the procedures, but there
were no written instructions, so this assignment was really a learning
experience, to say the least.

That decision volume was, I believe, number 25, and it did get printed.
Mr. Brewster was unique and typical of some of the attorneys at that
time. He was thoroughly versed in his work, never wanting to be given
an opportunity for more difficult assignments or achieving decision-
writing status. There were only two women in the Digest Section of the
Office of the General Counsel at that time. One was Sophronia Lasica, an
at.torncy who handled very competently the legal research inquiries.

Mrs. Lasica had taught legal research at Columbus Law School and was
consulted on enlarging the Law Library for the General Counsel’s office.
She was a very personable lady with an infectious laugh, and she was
very helpful to all the new employees. We didn’t have such things as
training or orientation courses at. that time.

The other woman was FIenrietta Campbell. She served for only a brief
time. It was some years later that. experienced attorneys in other sec-
tions of GAO and outside (;AO were hired to come to the Office of the
General Counsel.

From 1947 to 1954, under Comptroller General [Lindsay C.] Warren, who
had Messrs. Frank Weitzel; William Ellis; and, shortly thereafter, Kobcrt
Keller as his assistants: C;AObecame involved in a much wider field of
congressional matters. ,4s a result, Blanche Margason Wilcox, whom I’d
met in law school, was authorized to expand her unit. This was in 1947.
After an interview with Mr. Weitzel and a relcasc from Mr. Lyle Fisher,
who was General Counsel, I was assigned t,o lllanchc Margason’s Legisla-
tive Unit. I think this occurred during the 80th Congress.

Blanche, like Wallace Prescott, was what might be called a perfectionist,
and though exactness is not easy to learn by example, looking back on
this experience, I really think that it was very invaluable. Blanche
expanded her office by hiring att,orneys and legal clerks; the clerks were
law school graduat,cs but not. members of a bar.

One of the attorneys was Thela Henry, who was promoted from the
Wartime Audit Division, Thela was from Missouri. I think that Thela
and her husband Irby, both from Missouri and friends of the Trumans,
were one of the first husband-and-wife teams t,o bc admitted to the


Page 8
Interview With Margaret Macfaclane,
Geraldine Rubar, anld Stella Shea,
March 15,1989




Supreme Court together. Thela had a political background, so her pro-
motion to the Legislative TJnit was a real asset to us.

When 1 transferred back to the Digest Section in a supervisory capacity,
Thela Henry became Chief of the Legislative Section, and she continued
in that capacity until her retirement to Decorah, Iowa, to be near her
daughter and family.

Another woman with legal ability who followed the route from the War-
time Audit Group to the Legislative IJnit was Sadye Jane Davis. I want
to say something about her remarkable service.

While in the Legislative IJnit, Sadye enrolled in George Washington Uni-
versity Law School and received her LL.B. and passed the D.C. bar
exam. Sadye continued as Mrs. Henry’s assistant until transferring to
the Digest Section as my assistant. So we kind of rotated around for a
good many years; it was a pleasant rotation.

Other women attorneys served ably in the Digest and Legislative Units,
including Mildred Brown, Julia Prato, Madge Cosgrove, Blanche Ryder,
Virginia Schumacher! and Mary ?JaneLittle. While Schumacher, Little,
and Ryder transferred to other agencies, the others continued in GAO
until retirement, and their experience and continuity in the office made
it a great learning experience; it was a pleasure to work with them.

I was in the Index and Digest Section from 1954 to 1960. In 1954, when
many of the digest attorneys were being promoted to decision-writing
status, the General Counsel, Mr. Lyle Fisher, asked me to head the
Digest Section, which had from 15 to 20 legal people. I succeeded Jim
Greenhouse and Hugh Robbins in that unit.

Mr. Fisher approved my recommendation that Kate Ramey Conway,
who was in the Accounting and Bookkeeping Division, become my assis-
tant. Kate was a graduate of George Washington Law School. She was
then a widow, but her husband had, I believe, directed a field office for
GAOduring the war.

Kate and I supervised the section until her retirement, when Sadye Jane
Davis succeeded her. There were many fine attorneys who came to our
Digest Section, including -John Higgins, Paul Shnitzer, James Masterson,
and Seymour Efros, to name only a few.




Page 9
                    Interview With Margawt Macfarlane,
                    Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                    March 15,1989




                    Following Mr. Fisher’s retirement, Mr. Robert F. Keller became the Gen-
                    eral Counsel. Mr. Keller expanded the attorney recruitment program,
                    bringing in young attorneys from law schools, as well as getting expe-
                    rienced attorneys from the Claims and the Transportation Divisions,
                    including such women as Rita Hornyak, Thelma Hendrixson Jones, and
                    Thais Spencer.

                    Rita Hornyak was       soon recognized for her legal research and writing
                    skills by Assistant     General Counsel .Jed Welch. She was soon promoted
                    to decision writing     in the Procurement Section and at her retirement had
                    the highest grade,     I believe, of any of t,he woman attorneys before her
                    service.

                    I remember that Gerry Kubar came to the office during Mr. Fisher’s time
                    as General Counsel. One day 1!r. Fisher called me in and told me that
                    Gerry, because of her expertise in the Transportation Division, would
                    become a decision-writing attorney, unlike others who were transferred
                    and had an orientation in the Digest Section. So she was the first attor-
                    ney in that regard to come to the Office of the General Counsel.

Ms. liubar          That was December 8. 1954.

Mr. Eschwege        What was the name of the section? It was renamed. wasn’t it‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane     Well, the Digest Section stayed, but we had a separate Legislative Scc-
                    tion and the Index and Files Section.

Mr. Eschwege        But you were in overall charge of them as Chief of the Legal Reference
                    Services?                                                                      I


Mrs. Macfarlane     Not until Mr. Keller restructured the office in 1960.

Mr. Eschwege        You remained as chief until you retired in 1971.

R/irs. Macfarlane   Right.

Mr. Eschwege        They wrote a nice poem about you then, which I still have.

Mrs. kTacfarlane    Mr. John Burns, I think, did that.

Mr. Eschwege        Well, I think that’s very interesting. We’re going to get back to you on
                    some of the things t.hat those units did.



                    Page   10
                                                                                         -
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15, 1989




               Gerry, you were telling us before that you were working in the Trans-
               portation Division. If you could just for a moment tell us what happened
               in 1947 when you left, GAO and didn’t, return here until September 1948.

Ms. Rubar      Well, as you knew, WC had started the accelerated audit program along
               about 1944.

Mr. Eschwege   It was still a voucher audit though‘?

Ms. Rubar      Yes, a transportation voucher audit. What happened was that a month’s
               accounts would come in. WC had fallen a number of years behind in
               auditing because thcrc was such a vast, amount of t,ransportation activ-
               ity during the war.

               In those days, the government was still entitled to land grant deductions
               from rates on certain railroads in certain parts of the country. The rail-
               roads had becn given land grants in the 1860s. 187Os, and 188Os, along
               in there, so the l!nitcd States, in order to get the railroads built to the
               West and to settle the West, gave the railroads alternate sections of land
               along t,heir tracks. A section of land is a big piece of land. The railroads
               actually had recruiters in the European coumrics to recruit immigrants
               to come over here and settle on their land.

               In return for the grants of land, the railroads initially agreed to carry
               the government’s freight, free. The railroad management, being very
               good businessmen, ultimately decided this was too much. They made a
               lot of money out of the land grants, but., of course, t.hey had sold those
               lands by that time. Cities were built on them. So they lobbied and got a
               law through that the government traffic would bc carried at, Xl percent
               of the regular established rate.

               In addition to finding t.he exact rate that applied between origin and des-
               tinations, we also had to figure out whether there was any land grant
               available; the rat,e would not necessarily be 60 percent because the ship-
               ment wouldn’t move entirely over a land grant railroad. Part of it would
               be routed over non-land-grant railroads. Therefore, we had to learn how
               to apply the different applicable ratesjust the way the railroads appor-
               tioned them bct.wuen t.hemselves and then figure the land grant percent-
               ages and deduct them. And this was really very complex.

Mr. Eschwege   You could have used computers in those days.




               Page t 1
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15.1989




Ms. Rubar      We could have, yes We used calculators. Rut much of the traffic, of
               course, was moving cross-country; a great amount went for the war in
               the Pacific and therefore was going to the West Coast. When it was
               going to the East Coast, it probably came from the Midwest or from the
               Far West. Consequently, calculating and working out the rates was very
               time-consuming and very complex. We were falling behind in the audit,
               and the railroads were complaining bitterly.

               So the accelerated audit program required that when the monthly
               accounts came in from the War Department, for example, or from the
               Kavy, they were sorted by supervisory personnel, who actually
               screened them and looked at them and tried to decide which might have
               a substantial recovery of overcharges. What was under $100 was auto-
               matically stamped. What looked all right to them was also automatically
               stamped as having been audited. That way thousands of vouchers in a
               particular account. were reduced to probably a few hundred to be
               audited.

               In the fall of 1446, the war had been over a year; since we were war
               service appointees, we were all pretty trcpidatious and were thinking
               our jobs were going to end, In fact, some of my friends resigned and
               went back to their home stat.es because they were sure they would bc
               terminated.

Mr. Eschwege   You had a temporary appointment for the duration and 6 months?

Ms. Rubar      Yes. In the fall of 1946, after all this turmoil among people became
                known and morale was pretty low and, as I say, some people were lcav-
               ing, there was circulated a memorandum from either the division direc-
               tor or the Comptroller General stating that we need not worry about our
               jobs because our salaries were budgeted and the money had been appro-
               priated through the end of the fiscal year, which would be .June 30,
                1947.

               Well, being naive and gullible, I guess, I believed that and so did a lot of
               other people. Then came New Year’s Day of 1947. I think we were still
               working on Kew Year’s Day then. On that day, pink slips were handed
               out too. I think it was like 1,200 people in the Claims Division, of whom I
               was 1, receiving notice that our jobs would end on February 8, 1947.

               Then began a mad scramble looking for jobs. I remember going to the
               Army Security Agency and being offered a job in Saigon translating
               French. I didn’t take it because I eorrldn’t translate French that well. My


               Page 12
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15,1989




               college French wasn’t that good. Then I was hired in Montgomery
               County to teach sixth grade the following fall, but that was a long time
               off and I needed money. So I applied for a lot of other jobs, but I finally
               ended up working in the children’s department of the D.C. public library
               in the Georgetown Branch. I was over here in the main library most of
               the time, and then I was out in Chevy Chase when the congressional
               investigation of our wartime accelerated audit resulted in people being
               asked to come back to work.

Mr. Eschwege   Hecause the allegation was that a lot of these vouchers were just
               stamped “audited” but really had not been audited‘?

Ms. Rubar      That’s right. They had not been audited. A test reaudit was done in the
               spring and early summer of 1948. As a result of the test audit of maybe
               3 months’ accounts of the vouchers that had been stamped and sent to
               the files, an unbelievable amount of money was recovered in
               overcharges from the railroads.

               Consequently, it was agreed between the Comptroller General and the
               subcommittee holding the hearings that he’d get experienced people
               back and that he would set up a reaudit program.

               Gus Konker, a very dedicated gentleman who worked in the Transporta-
               tion Section, had taught a lot of us how to do the land grant computa-
               tions, and he taught me to bowl, too. We had a mixed bowling league in
               those days. He came down to the main library over here, specifically to
               the children’s room where I was working, and told me what was happen-
               ing and when people would be asked to come back. I knew when to take
               my vacation and when to be here so that I would be available when they
               called me.

               I came back to GAO on September 9, 1948, and was assigned first to the
               Western Freight Section and later to the Reaudit. Section.

Mr. Eschwege   So this was really a longer break than I thought,. This was over a year.

Ms. Rubar      Oh, yes. From February 1947 until September 1948. However, I went to
               work in the public library in April 1947, so act,ually, under the rules, I
               only had a 2-month break in government service. What they did was
               move my [Civil Service] computation date from September 9 to Novem-
               ber 9.

Mr. Eschwege   So working for the District library was federal employment too‘?


               Page 13
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 16,1989




Ms. Ilubar        Yes. So then I decided that women actually could become lawyers. I
                  always sort of had that in my head. I was going to be a writer too, but I
                  had the idea of becoming a lawyer. But women didn’t, and hardly any-
                  one from my college went to law school. I think one woman went to law
                  school. I decided that, yes, women could be lawyers. If I were to lose my
                  *job again, 1 needed something more than a bachelor of arts degree in
                  order to get another job. I tried to get into Georgetown Law School.
                  However, Georgetown was not taking women then.

                  So I went to Columbus Law School. I knew some people who had gone
                  there who I thought were extremely competent. I don’t know if you
                  remember Bill Levenstein! Margaret. He had gone to Columbus Law
                  School.

Mrs. Macfarlane   That’s where Sophronia Lasica taught, too.

Ms. Ilubar        Yes and Miriam Rooney, who later became Dean of Seton IIall Law
                  School. I started in law school, and, thank God, in those days you, did
                  not have to take the Law School Admission Test-the LSAT. All you had
                  to have was $30 a mont.h tuition.

                  I went to law school? and I decided to go summers also so that I could get
                  through faster. I went summers and winters for 2-l/2 years. We had
                  inter-law-school debates, and I was on our debating team. I have to say
                  this because I am not a great ardent fighting feminist, bu-I’m   sure,
                  Margaret, you did too-1 encountered a considerable amount of
                  prejudice against. women throughout my career. I was on a debating
                  team, and we debated Georgetown, which had a priest on its team.

                  He belonged to the Order of Preachers and had, therefore, been accus-
                  tomed to public speaking, having preached for a good many years.
                  Everyone believed that we had beaten them, and while the judges, who
                  were practicing lawyers, retired to make their decision, the Georgetown
                  team members all came over and congratulated me and my two
                  colleagues.

Mr. F:schwege     Your team had three women‘?

Ms. Ih 5ar        No, the other two were men. I should mention that the one judge who
                  was serving as chief judge never even looked at me all the time I was
                  speaking during the debate. He kept his head bent and his eyes on his
                  desk and never asked me a question. The other two *judges questioned
                  me. Well, they came’back to give their decision. Georgetown won.


                  Page 14
                     Interview With Margaret Macfarlanc,
                     Geraldine Ruhar, and StrLla Shea,
                     March 15,1989




                     All the schools in the competition had an attorney, who was their liaison
                     with the bar association that sponsored the debates. Our liaison went to
                     see each of the three judges and found that the one who acted as chief
                     judge had held out not to vote for our team and that the other judges
                     had finally given in. IIe would not agree to give us the win because there
                     was a woman on the team.

Mr. Eschwege         We’re going to get int,o the status of women a little bit more later when
                     Kogcr takes over. Did you transfer to the Office of t,he General Counsel
                     right after you became a lawyer’?

Ms. Rubar            No. The job I had then in the Transportation Division’s Special Reports
                     Section was a sort of paralegal position; \vcrc’
                                                                   prepared submissions for
                     C’omptroller General decisions. I took the bar examination in December
                     1952, and I passed. I graduated from law school in .Junc 1953. It was
                     December 1954 when I came to the Office of the General Counsel.

Mr. E!;chwege        So you took t,he bar exam before you even graduated?

Ms. Rubar            Yes. I had finished all my courses, by going through summer school and
                     I had finished my law scshoolexams in December. The reason I went to
                     the General Counsel’s office was that they desperately needed a trans-
                     portation attorney. Mr. Massey was the Assistant General Counsel in
                     charge of Transportation. He was just a lovely, tall, white-haired, hand-
                     some, courtly Virginian. He said to me, “I’ve even interviewed lawyers
                     that, came in off the stroct, men, but they didn’t have any experience.”
                     He came right, out and said, “11’I could find a man, I wouldn’t be offering
                     you the job.” I was the first decision-writing woman attorney and some
                     of the men wcrcn’t happy about it.

                                      -          _. -.-

Robert F. Keller’s
Service to GAO
Mr. Eschwege         Stclla, you got us up to the point where you started working for Bob
                     Keller in November 1RX).

                     I did want to say a few words about the late Bob Keller. It’s unfortunate
                     that we couldn’t get him on camera. Ile had a very interesting beginning
                     in GAOas well. In 1935, he started with a division called the Keconcilia-
                     tion and Clearance Division as a law clerk. He transferred to the Claims



                     Page 15
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stclla Shea,
               March 15,1989




               Division in 1937 and became a principal claims reviewer. He had a break
               in service because he went to the war, serving in the TJS. iXavy from
               1942 to 1945. After the war, he came back to GAO and served as legisla-
               tive attorney from 1946 to 1950. And then, after you joined him, Stella,
               he was an Assistant to the Comptroller General, and then in 1953, he
               became the Principal Assistant to the Comptroller General. He thought
               enough of you to have you come along with him, and I would say that if
               he were alive, he would say you’re the one that pushed him up there.

Mrs. Shea      Each time Mr. Keller was appointed to a new position, he graciously
               requested that I accompany him. Yes. Then he became General Counsel
               in 1958. And then he became Assistant Comptroller General. The title
               was later changed to “Deputy Comptroller General.”

Mr. Ekchwege   The Assistant Comptroller General was by statute the one person right
               next to the Comptroller General. There was provision for only one Assis-
               tant Comptroller General in t,he legislat.ion at the time, and later on, Mr.
               Staats prevailed upon the Congress to change that., to call this person
               the Deputy Comptroller General. Other positions were provided in t,hc
               following years t.o have a number of Assistant Comptrollers General.

               You stayed with Bob Keller until February 1980. Of course, Bob had
               some difficult years when his health deteriorated.

Mrs. Shea      Well, he really didn’t have difficulty.   It happened all of a sudden. llc
               had difficulty walking.

Mr. Ekchwege   The difficulty     was the handicap that he developed as a result of the
               operation.

Mrs. Shea      Yes, but until the surgery Mr. Keller’s health was fine. There was an
               aneurysm. That must have been an inherited condition, because his
               brother died of an aneurysm also.

Mr. Bchwege    linfortunately, he lost both his legs. I remember visiting him in the hos-
               pital, and I couldn’t help noticing that either he was putting up a terrific
               act or he really just mentally adjusted to it extremely well.

Mrs. Shea      Yes, it was not an act. IIe really did accept that. Mr. Keller had much
               love and support from Mrs. Keller, his daughters, and other members of
               his family and friends. Mr. Staats and all the T~AC) family also were very




               Page 16
                     Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                     Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                     March 15,1989




                     good to Mr. Keller. He had great strength of character and did not com-
                     plain. He continued to direct his energies to the fulfillment of his
                     obligations.

Mr. Eschwege         Well certainly, we who worked for him and with him didn’t notice any
                     difference after a while. IIe was as sharp mentally as ever. And he was
                     mobile in his chair; he got around, and it was just delightful. I’ll have to
                     say again that Stella was the one that really made it a pleasant office to
                     come to, also.

Mrs. Shea            It was a pleasure to work for Mr. Keller. He was always nice and every-
                     one who came to his office was nice. Everyone was always welcome.
                     Even when he was so very busy, if people wanted to see him, he would
                     ask that they wait and he would see them, regardless of how busy he
                     was. As Mr. Kane said at Mr. Keller’s memorial, “Mr. Keller was just a
                     real gentleman.” He never said anything unkind about anyone. He was
                     very special.

Mr. Eschwege         I guess he worked for five Comptrollers General [Messrs. McCarl, Brown,
                     Warren, Campbell, and Staats].



The Early Years in
GAO Under Lindsay
Warren (1940-1954)
Dr. Trask            All of you came to GAO when Lindsay Warren was Comptroller General,
                     so we want to talk about the Warren years. He remained as Comptroller
                     General, as you remember, until 1954.

                     The first question I want to ask each of you is what your impressions
                     were of C;AO. How was GAO perceived by the Congress, by the executive
                     branch, by the general public, and indeed by GAO employees? Some
                     things that I’ve read and some people that we’ve talked to have sug-
                     gested that perhaps in these years, GAO didn’t have the best image in
                     some circles. What are your reactions to that‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane      Mr. Warren, because of his long congressional experience, brought new
                     respect for the Office. It seemed to me that it was then that we were
                     changing from the perception of wearing green eyeshades and hovering
                     over tall desks to a more cooperative relationship with the agencies. I


                     Page 17
             Interview   With Margaret Macfarlane,
             Geraldine   Rubar, and Stella Shea,
             March   15.1989




             think Mr. Warren did start the first accounting group and brought them
             together. So, in that respect! many initiatives were taken under Mr. War-
             ren. IIe made our little Legislative Digest Unit. a real exciting place to
             work in because he was so congressionally oriented.

Ms. Rubar    I saw Mr. Warren only once, when he came out to our office. We were
             warned that he was coming and ordered to stay sitting at our desks
             looking busy. You see, we were out in McLean Gardens in a temporary
             building. The Second Dist.rict Police Headquarters is now located there

             We were completely isolated from the headquarters where Mr. Warren
             was. He and the lawyers of the Office of the Gcncral Counsel were in the
             Pension Building, We really didn’t think much at all about the rest of the
             Office, being by ourselves in the Claims Division.

             My only comment would be that the people I knew who worked in other
             agencies and especially older people, friends of my sister and brothor-in-
             law who had been here in the government for a few years, took a very
             dim view of GAO.They had the same green eyeshade attitude toward us
             that Margaret spoke of. So I wasn’t really that much aware of things
             changing becaust I wasn’t near the headquarters as Margaret and Stella
             were.

Mrs. Shea    I was always impressed with Mr. Warren, but that was about the time
             that I started to work for Mr. Keller; in tho 1950s, Mr. Keller, Mr. Weit-
             zel, and Mr. Wertz would go in to see him. They would go to Mr. War-
             ren’s office, or Mr. Warren would come to see either Mr. Weitzel or Mr.
             Keller. He was very informal and very easy to be with. IIe would put his
             legs up on somebody’s desk and ,just sit there and talk to them. They
             seemed to be doing a lot of work while talking.

             I was very much impressed with Mr. Warren. There was a legislative
             office at that time, if I remember correct,ly, thcrc was Dorothy Fegan
             and Blanche Margason [Wilcox].

             He would go in to see them frequently and talk about legislation, and
             they had good rapport. As a matter of fact, I know they thought very,
             very highly of Mr. Warren. I was new and was impressed.

Dr. T’rask   You may recall that on a number of occasions in the 19311sand even into
             the late 1940s, when Mr. Warren w;1s Comptroller General, there were
             threats to GAO’Scontinued existence. Various proposals were made for
             reorganization and possibly doing away with ~0. A lot of this related to


             Page 18
                       Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                       Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                       March 15, 1989




                       the fact that there was some feeling that GAO was performing executive
                       functions. Did you. as employees of GAO during that, period, feel this‘?
                       Was this a real concern’? Were you aware of these possible threats’?

Mrs. Shea              Well, Mr. Carl Berger had a radio program at that time, and there was
                       comment mado right. after I started that it, looked like GAO was going to
                       be abolished. That was mentioned many times, but it didn’t happen.

Ms. Rubar              That was one of the reasons that we had t,he tremendous reduction-in-
                       force. At least., this was what we understood to be t,hc reason at the time
                       or shortly thereafter. Agencies did not like being criticized by us, of
                       course, and GAOhad criticized. I think, the 12econstruction Finance Cor-
                       poration (KFC). IIFC’was supposed to have ended it.s existence, and we
                       criticized the number of employees still on board and the fact that KFC
                       sti!l existed.

                       We were told by our section chief, who had to fire us, that one reason
                       for the reduction-in-force was that IN’ was going to come out with some
                       terrible criticism of G:JOfor having so many pcoplc on its st,aff. There
                       were about 14,000 of us then, and Mr. Warren was going to get rid of us
                       before t,hc criticism could be made.


Women and Minorities
Dr. Trask              There have been some comments made already about the role of women
                       in what was essentially a male environment or a male-dominated envi-
                       ronment. Can you give any other examples of how much of a problem
                       you perceived this to bc?

Ms. Rubar              Actually, women got into the transportation work in the Claims Division
                       because the men were going off t,o war. GJ\Ohad previously hired men
                       who had worked in railroad rate bureaus and, thcrcfore, had the trans-
                       portation experience. So GXI began moving its women secretaries and
                       women clerks into those jobs and training them. They set up a freight
                       rate class and a passenger rating class and promoted from within. When
                       they didn’t have any more available women to put into it, they began
                       hiring from the outside. I was probably in the second class of people to
                       be hired from the outside.




                       Page 19
                        Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                        Geraldine Rubar, and SteUa Sht=a,
                        March 15.1989




                        And, of course, the men weren’t used to working with women except
                        when the women were in a subservient capacity, and they found it a
                        little bit difficult, I think.

Dr. Trask               What about minorities during this period--blacks     and other minorities’?

Mrs. Macfarlane         Well, I guess, in that respect, I had the first blacks at the Office of the
                        General Counsel, Later on, of course, we had a very fine woman attor-
                        ney. But coming back to Mr. Warren and his congressional relations, he
                        was very much interested in the Congressional Record. He insisted on it
                        being on his desk when he came to the office in the morning. If the Rec-
                        ord wasn’t ready, we would hear Mr. Weitzel striding down the corner to
                        our little unit to get the Record. Needless t.o say, we didn’t want this to
                        happen, because hc was really interested in seeing it, t,he first, thing
                        every morning.

                        Getting the digests and the Record to Mr. Weitzcl and to Mr. Keller and
                        later to the legislative attorneys continued to be the goal of this little
                        Legislative ITnit under Mrs. Blanche Margason Wilcox and me. We used
                        to come to work at 7 a.m. to get it done. Many times, we’d go down to the
                        Government Printing Office and pick up the Congressional Record so
                        that they could have t,heir marked copy on time.

                        Thela Henry even came to the office one morning wearing her kitchen
                        apron from home-she was in such a hurry to get there, Mr. Weitzcl and
                        Mr. Keller at that time urged the attorneys and the division chiefs to be
                        aware of the things that were going on on the Hill. As a result, the distri-
                        bution of the Congressional Record at t,hat time was a mqjor product of
                        our little unit,.


Duties of Legislative
Attorneys
Dr. Trask               Let me raise a question directed to you, Stella, about the role of legisla-
                        tive attorneys, particularly the roles that Bob Keller played in these
                        years as Assistant and later on Principal Assistant to t,he Comptroller
                        General. What were your impressions of his major functions*?

Mrs. Shea               Well, the requests would come in through Mrs. Macfarlane’s office for
                        the reports on bills. Each attorney was assigned a committee. They
                        would comment on the bills, but at that time, there weren’t as many



                        Page 20
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15, 1989




               requests as there are today. Mr. Johnson would handle one request. Mr.
               Wertz would handle another, and Mr. McKinley would handle another.
               They got out quickly. It was an important part of the office’s work. Mr.
               [Charles Edward] Eckert and Mr. [Owen] Kane became part of the staff.
               Blanche Margason Wilcox worked on the private relief bills.

Dr. Trask      I think the latest calculation is around 80 percent of our resources are
               devoted to congressional requests, and that provides a basis for compar-
               ison. But what about Mr. Keller’s duties at that time‘?

Mrs. Shea      He had many duties. IIe was involved with Mr. Weitzel when I first
               started to work for him. Of course, Mr. Weitzel was the head of the
               Office of the Assistants to the Comptroller General, and Mr. Keller was
               his assistant. There were three or four others that worked in the office
               at that time. Everyone was involved in writing reports on bills, prepar-
               ing statements for hearings, or writing speeches.

Dr. Tmsk       Specifically what kind of other things did Mr. Keller do?

Mrs. Shea      Well, in addition to working on comments on the bills, he handled the
               requests from the newspaper people-Drew Pearson and Raymond
               Moley. I’m sure you folks don’t remember Raymond Moley.

               Mr. Moley, Mr. Pearson, and Mr. Keller had a most wonderful relation-
               ship. I remember that many times when a report would have to go out,
               we would stay late to get it done and Mr. Keller would drive somebody
               over to Drew Pearson’s house to deliver the report, We didn’t have press
               releases as such at that time, but. when something had to get out, no
               matter the hour, it got out. If Mrs. Macfarlane didn’t help us, somebody
               else was called in, Mr. Kane or Mr. Eckert.

Mr. Eschwege   Did he do testifying, too, in those days‘?

Mrs. Shea      Yes. He did much testifying. I kept thinking about his testifying and
               speech writing while I was listening to Mrs. Macfarlane retell about Mr.
               Warren. WC were in the Pension Building at that time. This building that
               we are in now, the new GAOBuilding, was in the process of being built.
               We finally moved in here, and then they had the laying of the corner-
               stone. President Truman came, and Mr. Weitzel and Mr. Keller worked
               on Mr. Warren’s speech for the laying of the cornerstone; they worked
               on that long and hard. They’d prepare something and submit it to Mr.
               Warren. And Mr. Warren would look it over and send it back to them for



               Page 21
                            Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                            Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                            March 15, 1989




                            changes? and then they’d work some more. This continued until Mr. War-
                            ren was satisfied that the quality of the speech was equal to the impor-
                            tant occasion of laying the cornerstone.

Mrs. Macfarlane             With the speeches in it.

Mrs. Shea                   Yes. And then also 1 was thinking about Mr. Sidney Shalit of the Satur-
                            day Evening Post. He wrote articles on the General Accounting Office in
                            many, many issues. At that time, there was no press office, and either
                            Mr. Weitzel or Mr. Keller or Mrs. Macfarlane would provide the money-
                            it was probably a quarter, which was a lot of money in those days-foi
                            a copy of the Sat.urday Evening Post. We would go to the unit down-
                            stairs, the little store, and buy a copy of the Saturday Evening Post and
                            take it in to Mr. Warren so he could read what Mr. Shalit had written.
                            Mr. Warren got the magazine, but it was bought by either Mr. Weitzel or
                            Mr. Keller or Mrs. Macfarlane and not, by the General L4ecounting Office.

Mrs. Ma&&me                 As a matter of fact, when Mr. Warren retired: I think Mr. Weitzel and
                            Mr. Keller bot.1~said that, Mr. Warren was his own best publicity agent.


Impact of Legislative and
Other Changes
Mr. Ekchwege                Well, let’s get away from that area a little bit. Mr. Warren was here, of
                            course, when the Government Corporation Control Act of 1945 was
                            passed. Some people, at least, have seen that as a sort of a turning point
                            for GAO.Gerry, you and Mrs. Mac may not agree with this. They’ve said
                            that until about that time, this organization was run by lawyers. In
                            1945, first with the cnact,ment of the Government Corporation Cont,rol
                            Act., where GAOstarted to hire accountants to do audits of financial
                            st.atemcnts of government corporations, and then with Mr. Warren’s
                            introduction of what he called the comprehensive audit concept! GAO
                            began to be run by accountants. This concept essentially suggested or
                            required that, CIAOaudit not only corporations but other agencies of the
                            government and do the kind of audits and perhaps more than what it
                            did with the corporations under the 194F act.

                            Is it really true that t.he lawyers at least felt that maybe their clont was
                            slipping a little bit when all these other professionals came in’?




                            Page   22
                          Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                          Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                          March 15,1989




Ms. R,ubar                I don’t think I ever felt t.hat way. I wasn’t aware of any of my colleagues
                          feeling that. way. What. we felt was that the Office was improving; the
                          general viewpoint on GAOin the government was improving; and that
                          would be to our benefit, as well as to that of professionals other than
                          lawyers. I was nevur aware of any feeling that WC wcrc losing anything
                          when Bob Keller was General Counsel and later when Paul Dembling
                          t,ook over. The samt was true when Mr. Fisher was here, but then, of
                          course, he retired. I don’t. think that anyone needed to worry that the
                          necessary clout would be lost with them as the Gcncral Counsels. They
                          could handle and protect our int,erests moving into the new GAORuilding
                          to the extent they nccdcd to be.



Moving Into the New GAO
Building
Mr. E,schwege             You mentioned the new GAO Building, which was about finished in 1951
                          after a pause during World War II, when nothing was done.

Ms. R,ubar                In World War II, this entire area except for the church and a few little
                          houses was a hole in the ground. They had made t.hc excavations before
                          the war began and then they had to strop.

Mr. Eschwege              Hut the headquarters was in the Pension 13uilding; was that where you
                          were, Mrs. Mac?

Mrs. IMacfarlane          Yes, we were in the Pension Building on the second floor,

Mr. Eschwege              Kight near the Comptroller General?

Mrs. Macfarlane           Yes, we were on the other side of the stairwell, the south side of the
                          building.

                           I have a little story about the new building, because I thought it was sort
                          of interesting. Of course, we owed the new building to Mr. [Frank] Yates
                          [Assistant Comptroller General], because he saw the need for it, did the
                          justification, and &tended the hearings. I remember how, as Gerry has
                          said, we’d look at the hole from the second floor in the old Pension
                          Ijuilding. It was important that we move to the new building before it
                          was completed, because we were afraid another agency would get the
                          building. More agencies were clamoring for space in the government.




                          Page 23
                   Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                   Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                   March X,1989




                   As I remember it, we in the Legislative Digest IJnit moved at night or
                   over a weekend. It seems to me that we worked all night getting the
                   materials from the old building to the t.hird floor where the cafeteria is
                   now. On Monday, the st.aff came to work. We had taken two rotary fans,
                   which we were not supposed to do, to the new building, because it, we
                   were told, was air-conditioned. My people came to work there, I guess at
                   8 o’clock that Monday morning, and it was about 90 degrees; it was
                   February.

                   It was cold outside and very, very warm in the building. Of course, the
                   heat and the air-conditioning weren’t regulated for some years, I guess,
                   after that. But we moved t.o the t,hird floor at the same time the Comp-
                   troller General’s office moved to the seventh floor. It was so warm that
                   morning, so we got out the fans that, I’d retrieved, and still I was corn-
                   plaining because it. was almost impossible for the people to work.

                   Mr. Yates came down to see what the situation was like, and he said,
                   “.Just a minute, I’ll send you down some fans.” He had taken his over to
                   the new building.

                   So we remember that first day, and, of course, we used the stairwell
                   from the third floor to the seventh floor for a good long period of time
                   until the rest of the floors were completed.

Dr. T:rask         Were GA40employees happy to move to the new building’? I ask that ques-
                   tion because just the other day, I was reading a 1951 issue of The
                   Watchdog and thcrc was a column from one of the divisions. The author
                   was complaining rather bitterly about the building! that it was sterile.
                   IIe didn’t like the fluorescent lighting and things of that sort and was
                   very nostalgic about the Pension Building. Was this a general view‘?

Mrs, IMacfarlane   Well, I believe Mr. Warren didn’t like moving over to the new building.

M- . Eschwege      Wasn’t one of the problems that, the building was designed to house the
                   voucher audit activities, where they would have lots of people in this
                   big, vast area to do that‘? Yet, after the war! as I just mentioned, we got
                   this new legislation to get into other areas and other activities, which no
                   longer made that building very conducive t,o what we were trying to do.
                   Some people called that vast open area, I believe, the “warehouse.”
                   Now, Gerry, you moved into this building too?

MS, R,ubar         We moved in May 19350to the fifth floor, which was only half com-
                   pleted. We moved into the complctcd half; I think we had escalators


                   Page 24
                   Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                   Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                   March 15. 1989




                   coming up to the fifth floor by that time. I’m not sure whether the eleva-
                   tors worked, I know we did a lot of walking on the stairs, and we were
                   happy to come down from McLean Gardens. Of course, when we were in
                   McLean Gardens, I could, if I wanted to, walk to work, because I lived in
                   that general area, but it was more fun coming downtown. I think we
                   liked the idea of being part of the whole agency, which we had not felt
                   we were before.

Dr. Trask          So the building did perform the function of bringing GAO together and
                   making it more of an integrated organization?

Ms. Rubar          Yes, our area in the Transportation Division did not have interior walls;
                   so the building worked for us as it. had been designed to work. The only
                   interior walls were the offices of the Director of the Division and so on
                   along the perimeter, but the vast interior space was separated by filing
                   cabinets into sections.

Mrs. Shea          They didn’t have the modulars. They had one great big room.

Ms. Rubar          Oh, that’s right, And then you had the bookcases with the tariffs in
                   them as separators and dividers between sections.

Dr. Trask          I think one of the ideas when the building was designed was that they
                   needed a lot of space for storage or placement of records. But if you
                   have read the annual reports for the 1940s you may remember that Mr.
                   Warren took great pleasure every year in reporting how many tons of
                   records and paper had been gotten rid of. I think that by 1950 or so, that
                   was no longer a problem, but they had not planned on these changes
                   that no longer required extensive space for storing of records.


                   Let’s move on now and take a look at the Campbell era. Mr. Warren
The Campbell Era   resigned in 1954 and Mr. Campbell came on at the end of 1954 and
(1954-1965)        served until the end of July 1965. One of the important changes that
                   took place during the early Campbell era was a new emphasis on recruit-
                   ing and particularly training of personnel.

                   There was a special emphasis on bringing in accountants, many at the
                   beginning levels and some, like Mr. Eschwege here, in more senior or
                   more experienced positions.




                   Page 25
                  Interview   With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine   Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March   15,198S




                  What was the impact of this new recruiting and training effort, particu-
                  larly emphasizing accountants, on the stature of the Office of the Gen-
                  eral Counsel and the Claims and Transportation Divisions’? What were
                  your responses to that at the time this was taking place‘?

Mrs+ Macfarlane   I think that just so far as we were concerned, it was a change in style.
                  Mr. Campbell was a professional, and hc sort of urged the Office of the
                  General Counsel to bu more professional than we were. Conferences
                  with shirt sleeves were no longer the rule of the day, and the attorneys
                  spruced up. I remember even then Mr. Hoagland [Chief, Transportation
                  Division] didn’t like to have to wear a coat to conferences. I think he was
                  the only chief I knew \vho protested the rule for more professionalism.

Ms. Hubar         Mr. Hoagland was a very large man, tall and heavy. He must have had
                  really high blood pressure, because his fact was always so red and hc
                  kept an oxygen machine in his office. IIe wrote innumerable memoran-
                  dums to the Comptroller General about the air-conditioning, and he
                  brought in tanks of oxygen from home so that, he could give himself oxy-
                  gen whenever hc ftllt the air was too bad.

Mr. Eschwege      Well, did the dress code for the ladies change too‘?

Ms. R.ubar        In those days, the era of wearing pants had not come and so we wore
                  dresses or suits-

Mrs. Shea         -and        hats and gloves.

Dr. Trask         I think there was still some recruiting of attorneys during this period.
                  Mrs. Macfarlane, did you play any role in that’?

Mrs. Mad&lane     Oh, yes. Mr. Keller had started the recruitment. of young attorneys out
                  of law schools. They were assigned to our Legal Reference Section. We
                  had attorney-training programs. That was one of the real interesting
                  assignments I had in those days, because we had hired so many fine
                  young men who continued to stay in GAO and fill out their careers there.

Mrs. iShea        And are still there.

Dr. Trask         Were the attorneys who were recruited in those years still mainly men
                  or were there some women?

Mrs. Macfarlane   We had, of course, women that we promoted from the Claims Division!
                  so we had a good number of women in all the sections.


                  Page 26
                   Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                   Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                   March 15,1989




Dr. T:rask         But were women being brought in from the outside in this recruitment?

Ms. Rubar          Leslie Wilcox was one of the few women attorneys brought in from the
                   outside in those days. For a number of years after I came to the Office of
                   the General Counsel, 1 was the only decision-writing woman attorney
                   until Rita Hornyak and Thelma ,Joncs came. Later, Thais Spencer came
                   from t,he Transportation Division. lsut, Leslie Wilcox was the first
                   woman hired from the outside. She is no longer here, 1 understand. She
                   went to the Office of Government Ethics. She had been a GAOethics per-
                   son for a lvhile with Henry Barclay.

Mrs. XIacfarlane   Another very well-known woman was Toni Friedman

Ms. Rubar          She worked in the Legislative Reference Services while she was going to
                   lag school. Then she went up on the Hill with Senator [Ernest] Grucning
                   of Alaska.

Mrs. Macfarlane    Right.

Ms. Rubar          When Senator Gruening was not going to run again, Toni came back to
                   GAOand was assigned to the decision-writing staff in the civilian person-
                   nel area.

Mrs. ‘Macfarlane   While we’re speaking of women, during Mr. Keller’s time as General
                   Counsel, he took the lead in getting a black woman attorney on our staff.
                   IIcr name was ,Janie Harris. She was hired from Yale IJniversity and, I
                   believe, the Tennessee Law School. Because of her ability, she spent only
                   a short, time in my section, the Digest Section, and then was almost
                   immediately assigned to the military-decision-drafting area. One of my
                   special rewards from serving in the Digest Section was learning of .Janic
                   Harris’s progress. After a very short time, she opted for motherhood
                   and left GAO. After her boys were of school age, Janie served as a trust
                   officer in several important South Carolina banks. She is now a succoss-
                   ful career woman.

                   This Christmas, when I heard from her, she said she had a chance to get
                   a much better position! so I’m hoping to hear of her progress farther up
                   the ladder.




                   Page 27
                 Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                 Geraldine Rubar, and SteLla Shea,
                 March l&l989




The ~ZincCase
Inveistigation
Dr. Tmsk         There was another interesting event in this same era, early in the Camp-
                 bell period, known in GAO as the “zinc stink, ” or the zinc case, It involved
                 the role of the Office of Investigations. Do you recall that and its
                 impact?

Ms. Rubar        I guess I didn’t know it was the zinc case. I knew there was a case in
                 which the Office of Investigations got into really bad trouble with Mr.
                 Campbell and Bill Ellis, who was the Chief of the Office of Investiga-
                 tions. Mr. Campbell backed them up on the Hill.

Mr. Eschwege     Well, I think we finally had to admit that there were a couple of
                 errors-two,    I think.

Ms. Rubar        Wasn’t the Dixon-Yates case involved in that too?

Dr. Trask        Mr. Campbell as an Atomic Energy Commissioner, prior to becoming
                 Comptroller General, had been involved in the Dixon-Yates case. Appar-
                 ently, that was a problem for Mr. Campbell, during the hearings on his
                 confirmation. As a matter of fact, he had to abstain from involvement in
                 certain matters relating to that case that continued to be important to
                 GAO and to AK [Atomic Energy Commission].

MS, R.ubar       Didn’t the Dixon-Yates case occur before Mr. Campbell came to GAO‘?

Dr. T,rask       Yes, it occurred in the early 1950s but mainly while he was a Commis-
                 sioner in the Atomic Energy Commission. Apparently, he had relation-
                 ships with some people in the Congress who didn’t agree with him and
                 his position on Dixon-Yates and this affected the confirmation hearings.
                 But there was some continuing controversy about Dixon-Yates after he
                 became the Comptroller General. Somebody else here, I believe Mr. Weit-
                 zel, had to deal it.

Ms. Rubar        But of the “zinc stink,” all I remember is that ultimately the Office of
                 Investigations was abolished and Bill Ellis went elsewhere, I think he
                 went to the Federal Power Commission. I thought it was very interesting
                 a year or so ago when I found out that w-e again have an investigations
                 unit in the Office of the General Counsel.

Mrs. Macfarlme   The pendulum swings back and forth.



                 Page 28
                      Interview With Margaret Macfarlaue,
                      Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                      March 16,1989




Dr. Trask             It was established 2 or 3 years ago by Mr. Bowsher. I found this interest-
                      ing from the historical point of view. Mr. Bowsher asked for a study of
                      the old Office of Investigations, its organization, and its problems in the
                      process of trying to decide whether to establish this new Office of Spe-
                      cial Investigations.


The Role of Top GAO   We mentioned Frank Weitzel a minute ago. I’d like to discuss Weitzel’s
                      role during this period when Campbell was Comptroller General. Weitzel
Assistants            was, of course, the number-two person [Assistant Comptroller General]
                      in the agency for much of this period, but his role seemed to change. Can
                      any of you comment on that or respond to it‘?

Mr. Eschwege          I guess we all know that Mr. Campbell did not fully utilize the services
                      of Mr. Weitzul. I realize that there were innuendoes and rumors and so
                      forth, and we don’t want you to repeat something that you don’t know
                      for a fact. On the other hand, you must have noticed that there was
                      more of a distancing between Mr. Campbell and Mr. Weitzel for what-
                      ever reason.

Ms. liubar            You know, it may have been partly because Mr. Weitzel had already
                      been appointed Assistant Comptroller General at the time that Mr.
                      Campbell came aboard as Comptroller General. It is very possible that
                      Mr. Campbell would have liked to have a part in the selection of his
                      Deputy, which of course, he did not have. I remember Mr. Keller telling
                      me once that he had drafted the legislation very carefully that provided
                      for the Deputy Comptroller General’s term to coincide with that of the
                      Comptroller General. Also, the method of appointment was to be revised
                      so that the Comptroller General would have an opportunity to partici-
                      pate in the selection of his Deputy.

Mr. Eschwege          And that’s the way it was enacted. Again, only from your knowledge, I
                      gather that Mr. Campbell heavily leaned on Mr. Keller then, am I right?
                      And he utilized him extensively in some functions that one would think
                      normally Mr. Weitzel would have handled.

Ms. Rubar             Mr. Weitzel handled all of our transportation decisions, and he signed all
                      of them. Mr. Campbell did not look at them. So he apparently turned the
                      transportation area over entirely to Mr. Weitzel, and I think he handled
                      the overseas branches also.

Mrs. Shea             Yes, those were under his jurisdiction.



                      Page 29
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15,1989




Dr. Tr#ask        What about Mr. Keller’s role during this period? You’ve already indi-
                  cated that he was very close to Campbell as Assistant and then as Gen-
                  eral Counsel. Could you expand on this in terms of the kinds of things he
                  did‘?

Mrs. Shea         They just had a wonderful relationship, and they worked together
                  closely. I don’t know how to expand on it other than to say t.hat it was a
                  mutually rewarding, as well as a smoothly running, productive
                  relationship.

Mrs. Macfarlane   That’s my recollection too. Because of the close relationship that Mr.
                  Keller had with Mr. Campbell and the reliance that Mr. Campbell placed
                  on him, the staff in our Office of the General Counsel had a very impor-
                  tant. role during that period of t.ime.

Mrs. Shea         He just called on Mr. Keller for everything. Of course, I wasn’t in on the
                  policy. I did the typing and the telephone answering.

Mr. Eschwege      Well you had a different perspective though. You got to know a lot of
                  people because a lot of people wanted to go in and see Bob Keller.

Mrs. Shea         And he always did see them. But he and Mr. Campbell really did have a
                  special relationship. There’s no question about that. Their partnership
                  would accomplish one objective and moved directly to another without a
                  pause. It was a pleasure to observe,

Mr. Eschwege      Was it mostly in the office or was it also social’!

Mrs. Shea         Oh, it was in the office. I do not know that it was social.

Dr. Trask         Did Mr. Campbell rely on the General Counsel’s office more than Mr.
                  Warren or utilize it in any different ways? Were there any changes in
                  this period?

Mrs. Macfarlane   We were fortunate to have Mr. Campbell appoint Mr. Keller as General
                  Counsel, and in that way, he helped the General Counsel’s office. Mr.
                  Keller was hiring new attorneys, and the office was broadening its scope
                  in every way.




                  Page 30
                          Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                          Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                          March 15,lSSS




Congressional Relations
Dr. Trask                 Okay. Let’s move on to something else. Another kind of crisis in GAO’S
                          history developed with the Holifield hearings in 1965, relating primarily
                          to GAO’S audits of defense contracts. Was there very much OGC involve-
                          ment in that, such as the preparation for the hearings or responding to
                          some of the problems existing at the time?

Ms. Rubar                 I don’t recall much because it would have been procurement attorneys
                          who would have been involved, not the transportation attorneys. Of
                          course1 we were very well aware that Mr. Campbell was testifying. I’m
                          sure, Henry, you remember better than I do about this. But I remember
                          that t.he reports in those days used to name names of [persons responsi-
                          ble for activities being questioned]. I remember having to work for some
                          reason with a report on an audit of a Westinghouse contract with the
                          Department of Defense. I remember that the appendix included the
                          names of the officials in the Department who had been involved in this
                          procurement and the names of t.hc officials at Westinghouse. The report
                          recommended that disciplinary action be taken against these people. I
                          think a considerable sum of money- an overpayment or an excess pay-
                          ment on the contract-was identified.

Mr. ELschwege             These were usually GXJ recommendations for voluntary refunds.

Ms. Rubar                 Yes. I don’t know why I was involved. There must have been some
                          transportation aspect of it, but I remember that was Westinghouse, and I
                          know that we did name names in those days. I think that Mr. Weitzel,
                          who took over testifying in the Holifield hearings, agreed not to name
                          names after that.

Mr. EIschwege             Yes. This was in the summer of 1965, and then Mr. Campbell resigned
                          for ill health.

Dr. Trask                 I have one other question relating to the Campbell era, and this particu-
                          larly is directed to you, Mrs. Mac, about increasing legal reference and
                          indexing services. Was there an acceleration of those services compared
                          with the Warren period‘?

Mm Macfarlane             Yes, of course, because Mr. Keller and Mr. Campbell wanted all the divi-
                          sions to be aware of what was happening on the Hill. While Mr. Warren
                          had started it, it greatly increased under Mr. Keller and Mr. Campbell.




                          Page 31
                 Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                 Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                 March 15, 1989




The Staats Era
Mr. Esehwege     We’re getting into the Staats era now. We were talking earlier about the
                 relationship between Frank Weitzel and Mr. Campbell. Now, Mr. Staats
                 comes aboard, and I suspect the relationship changed. Did you notice the
                 change‘? Did Mr. Weitzel get closer to the Comptroller General’s office
                 than he was before?

Mrs. Shea        That’s true.

Mr. Eschwege     Would you say he was functioning more like a Deputy to the Comptrol-
                 ler General at that point,?

Mrs. Shea        Yes.

Mr. Eschwege     We’ve already talked about the fact that in 1969, Bob Keller took over
                 the position of Assistant Comptroller General and then the position was
                 renamed Deputy Comptroller General.

                 EIe didn’t get t,hat appointment! which had to go through the Senate con-
                 firmation proceedings, very quickly and easily and without, any prob-
                 lem. It was to Rob Keller’s credit t.hat he came from the inside of GAO
                 and, therefore, was not a political t,ypc of person, and it was therefore
                 perhaps more difficult to get, that nomination.

Mrs. Shea        I think there were ot.hers that were interested in the job, and they were
                 political.

Mr. Eschwege     That’s right. Do you know or do you want to tell us who the others
                 were?

Mrs. Shea        I have no direct knowledge who the others may have been. There was
                 somebody else and that somebody else had more clout. Mr. Staats
                 wanted Mr. Keller, and he worked real hard to get him.

Mr. Eschwege     Right. And Mr. Staats had a lot of good friends up on the IIill. And while
                 he, too, was not considered to be very political, he knew his way around
                 up there.

Mrs. Shea        Yes, and he also wanted an attorney who knew the General Accounting
                 Office.



                 Page 32
                           Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                           Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                           March 15.1989




Mr. Ekchwege               Right. And it had sort of become almost a tradition with Weitzel and
                           maybe with one other-

Mrs. Shea                  Mr. Yates.

Mr. Ekchwege               -so it was pushed very hard. I think I had heard that there may have
                           been one other particular factor that caused a little problem, and that
                           was a decision that GAO had rendered on the Philadelphia Plan. Do you
                           remember that one? It turned out we were proven right later on in court,
                           but at the time, politically, it was not well-received because as General
                           Counsel Mr. Keller had ruled that in a particular contract, the spelling
                           out of how many minorities you had to hire [quota] under that federal
                           contract was not in accordance with the law. Is that pretty much your
                           understanding‘?

Ms. Elubar                 It was an affirmative action plan. You know, it’s so difficult in an
                           affirmative action to find that something is not a quota. If you’re going
                           to try to get X number of minorities into the organization or working on
                           the contract, it is very difficult to determine that this is not a quota. If I
                           remember rightly, we held that their plan was a quota. The Department
                           of eJusticedisagreed with us, and, I think, ultimately, the court said that
                           we were right.

Mr. ESschwege              Yes, it took several years and, of course, there was a lot of opposition,
                           not so much on legal ground, but just the idea that GAO ruled against it. I
                           guess internally there was concern also about coming out with a decision
                           like that, but I guess our people felt that legally we could rule no other
                           way.




Reorganizing GAO in 1972   Bob Keller was appointed by Mr. Staats to chair a committee, the Organ-
                           ization and Planning Committee. As best as I can determine, the purpose
                           of that committee was to recommend to Mr. Staats how GAO might be
                           reorganized, especially the accounting divisions, to make them more
                           effective and to put the organization on a more functional line or
                           approach to auditing. We didn’t know much about this. It had to do with
                           the 1972 reorganization, but there was also already some reorganization
                           in 1971.

Mrs. Shea                  Mr. Staats and Mr. Keller worked on that very closely and alone, I may
                           have done a lot of typing, but I wasn’t in on any of that.

Mr. Ekchwege               I see. It was a well-guarded secret for a long time.


                           Page 33
                            Interview   With Margaret Macfarlane,
                            Geraldine   Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                            March   15,1989




Mrs. Shea                   Yes. But everybody in the Office talked about it.

Mr. Eschwege                Yes. Except the principal secretaries and executive secretaries like Stella
                            Shea, who were very loyal to their bosses and never did talk about it.

Mrs. Shea                   The proper performance of a secretary requires that official secrets
                            remain so.

Mr. Eschwege                It’s true that Bob Keller did come up with a plan together with his com-
                            mittee, and while I guess Mr. Staats bought most of it, he did not accept
                            one proposal, and that would have meant to appoint a general manager
                            to kind of run all of the GAO divisions. So they compromised on that.
                            Especially since I and a few of my colleagues were the beneficiaries of
                            this reorganization, we felt it was a very good move. To this day, while
                            we have a somewhat different organization now, I think still we see the
                            roots of what we have today in that plan that Bob Keller and his com-
                            mittee developed.

Mrs. Shea                   So it was a good plan:)

Mr. Elschwege               Yes, and it was a plan that was needed in order to get us into the latter
                            half of the 20th century and to have GAO keep up with all the different
                            programs and activities that we were charged to audit.


Staff Development Efforts   We’ve already talked a little bit, as far as lawyers are concerned, about
                            efforts to bring more minorities and women onto the GAO professional
                            staff. You may remember this, Gerry. Although, I think, you were gone
                            from the Transportation Division by then, we had some discrimination
                            suits in the Transportation Division.

Ms. Rubar                   Yes, I knew about them because they were being handled by a lawyer in
                            our section, Rob Evcrs, who is no longer in GAO. He used to talk to me
                            about them and consult me occasionally because I knew some of the peo-
                            ple that were involved.

Mr. Eschwege                There was the famous Otha Miller case.

Ms. Rubar                   Yes. And I remember who Otha Miller was. I think he went to the IJni-
                            versity of Southern Illinois. Everybody knew Otha Miller.




                            Page 34
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Gvaldine  Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15,1989




Mr. Eschwege   Yes, and the case was settled finally. You might say that he made his
               point, and he felt that he had won to the extent that he was compen-
               sated for not being able to advance by reason of being a minority, espe-
               cially since he had a college degree.

               The next thing that involved you very much, Gerry, was that Paul
               Dcmbling came in and est,ablished a different kind of relationship
               bet.ween the General Counsel and the audit people. 1 was to benefit from
               t,hat, too, eventually. FVould you like to talk about that briefly?

Ms. Rubar      Well, I think Mr. Dembling probably came in 1969 or 1970 after Mr. Kel-
               ler moved up,

Mr. Eschwege   Yes, 1969. IIc did this in about 1973.

Ms. Rubar      In his early years, the average age of the attorney personnel was getting
               higher and higher, and people were retiring in vast numbers each year.
               So his first couple of years were taken up with overcoming the loss of
               large numbers of experienced attorneys and setting up a recruiting pro-
               gram. IIe chose attorneys from every one of his legal groups and sent us
               out to recruit. I did it for a couple of years, once with Leslie Wilcox and
               then with one of the men attorneys. We went to Illinois and recruited in
               Chicago and at the 1ynivcrsity of Illinois in Champaign-I!rbana, and
               then, here in Washington, I recruited at Catholic Ilniversity, at
               Georgetown, and at. George Washington ITniversity. We had all these
               t,eams, and people rccruitcd on the West Coast, and WC recruited at
               Columbia. Each year, we brought in new, young attorneysjust out of
               law school. And wc recruited from only the top 10 percent of the classes.

               Then he also established an orientation arrangement, and so the first
               couple of years were t.aken up with that. In ,January of 1973, Richard
               Pierson was hired. He had worked in LL\Oin procurement back in the
                1960s and had then gone to pines\[National Aeronautics and Space
               Administration] and worked for Paul Dembling. Then he !vas assigned to
               the Procurement Commission. Pierson came back to (;Au, and Dembling
               put. him in charge of a tiny group of att,omeys, of whom I was one; he
               supposedly borrowed attorneys from the different sections in OG~and
               later assigned US permanently to him.

               We were given the task of working with the operating divisions and pro-
               viding legal help for them in as timely a fashion as possible and as infor-
               mally as possible. The reason for this was that until then, when in the
               course of an evaluation of an agency program the auditors encountered


               Page 35
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March EL1989




               a legal problem, they had to write a formal memorandum signed by the
               division director addressed to the General Counsel.

               Then it was set up as a case, and, ultimately, it was assigned to an attor-
               ney, and there it took its place with the attorney’s overall work load.
               Depending upon the work load! it could be quite a while before the attor-
               ney was able to attend to that. After doing the research and writing a
               response, it had to go through the formal review process and ultimately
               be signed by the General Counsel. That could take a long, long time.

Mr. Eschwege   Would you care to guess how long it could take’?

Ms. Rlubar     Oh, I know it could take over a year anytime. And whether the law was
               applied correctly in the report or not. the report had long gone by the
               time the response came. This was really a very bad sit,uation, because
               here we were in the Office of the General Counsel busily writing deci-
               sions to every agency of the government and to private parties. and we
               weren’t giving any service at all to our own people. They needed law-
               yers just as badly as anybody else did.

               So this unit set up a very informal program whereby evaluators would
               call on us. We had assigned responsibilities-I   always had your division,
               Henry. There was a time when I also had GGD(General Government Divi-
               sion], as well as some other responsibilities. They would call me and say,
               “Look, you know! we’re working in the Agriculture Depart,ment, we’re
               working at WA [Environmental Protection Agency], or wherever, and WC
               think we have a problem with enabling legislation. Can we talk about
               it‘?” So I and an at,torney working with me that I could assign it to would
               go meet with the staff. We’d talk with them and find out what to do.

               We would proceed to do the work, and when we reached a conclusion,
               we’d agree upon whether it had to be put in writing or whether they
               could accept an informal answer. If it had to be put in writing, we were
               able to move it very fast through our little section and get, it approved.

               When Mr. Dembling was here, we could get it approved very quickly by
               him if we were right,. Our work received tremendous and valuable sup-
               port from the audit divisions.

Mr. Eschwege   We have this arrangement still to this day with some modification where
               each division has its organizational counterpart in the Office of the Gen-
               eral Counsel. Your group was called the Special Studies and Analysis
               Group, right?


               Page 36
                Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                Gerakline Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                March 15,1989




Ms. Rubar       Right. I was just going to say that I am very proud of the fact that it is
                now a universal function in OGC. I used to say to Mr. Dembling that we
                really needed two Deputy General Counsels: one to be in charge of the
                decision writing and one to be in charge of the helping audit divisions.

                We were always up there asking him for more help, In fact, at one time,
                he made me promise that, I would turn down work that I couldn’t handle.

                nut we felt that the work we were doing with the audit divisions was
                very important. I find now that OGC has been reorganized and that at
                last audit divisions are assigned to all the OGC groups-it took 10 years.

Mr. Ekchwege    J,et me just ask you one more question. Were there any efforts-I’m
                looking at Stella, but everybody else can comment-to enhance the role
                of the support staff? We call them professional support staff: the techni-
                cal, the secretarial, and all those kinds of people. If there was such an
                effort, was it in the early years or later years and under whom‘? Was
                their stature enhanced in terms of providing more training or maybe
                increasing their grades a little bit. to better cope with the increasing com-
                plexity of the work in (;AO?

Mrs. ,Shea      I don’t remember that there was an awful lot of training or higher
                grades for the support. staff when we were in the Office of the General
                Counsel. I think Mr. Dcmbling started that.

Ms. Rubar       Oh, yes. Mr. Dembling really tried and made courses available for either
                in-house training for secretarial staff and support staff or courses
                outside the agency that GAO would pay for.

Mr. Elschwege   Well, I think that was part of Mr. Staats’s program too.

Ms. Rubar       That may well have been.

Mrs. iShea      It was part of Mrs. Macfarlane’s program too. She trained her folks a lot.

Mr. Ekchwege    Mr. Staats did also provide generally for GAO people to take courses. You
                will recall the IJpward Mobility Program that he initiated.

                The program was meant for secretarial people in general and minorities,
                of course, to try to get those people at least identified who had some
                college education but who needed more credits. He would encourage
                them to go to school and get degrees, and then eventually integrate them
                int.o the professional st.aff.


                Page 37
                         Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                         Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                         March 16, 1989




Ms. Rubar                Yes, two of our secretaries from Special Studies got into the Upward
                         Mobility Program: Carol Woodward, who is no longer with GAO,I think,
                         and Maryellen Heagy.



Evolution of Relations
With the Congress,
Agencies, and Media

Congressional Contacts
Dr. Trask                Let’s talk now about GAO’S relationships with the Congress and its staff,
                         the executive branch, and the media. The Comptrollers General whom
                         you have worked for include Warren; Campbell; Staats; and, in the case
                         of Gerry, Bowsher. There have been some changes certainly in the con-
                         gressional relationships, but there’s been a lot of change also in terms of
                         media relationships.

                         I wonder if any of you could comment on that. First of all, could you
                         comment on congressional relationships and especially what the Office
                         of the General Counsel might have contributed to them in terms of work
                         on reports and hearings, legal decisions, staff assignments, and things of
                         that sort?

Mrs. Macfarlame          Well, one of the nice experiences I had was preparing material for Mr.
                         Weitzel and for Mr. Keller for testimony at hearings during Mr. Warren’s
                         term and then later on. Both Mr. Weitzel and Mr. Keller would return
                         from the Hill and tell us in our clerical section what had happened on
                         the Hill. I think that this was unique and certainly wouldn’t be possible
                         these days. We always felt a part of the things that were going on; that
                         included the messengers t.hat would help glue the testimony into a
                         notebook.

                         And I remember that when they did come back, Mr. Weitzel and Mr. Kel-
                         ler said that they’d never been asked a question that they hadn’t pre-
                         pared for in advance and for which there wasn’t well-documented
                         information. On one occasion, when Mr. Warren had departed from his
                         written statement, he ad-libbed a little bit, and so when Mr. Weitzel and
                         Mr. Keller returned, they said to us, “Will you please see if you can find
                         this in our legislative history going back to when Mr. Warren was a


                         Page 38
            Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
            Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
            March l&l989




            member of the Congress ?” We searched diligently, and, yes, we did find
            it, to everyone’s relief.

            But. it shows what work we did at the time to be sure that Mr. Weitzel
            and Mr. Keller had all the necessary papers I guess Stella will vouch for
            t,his.

Mrs. Shea   Yes, we prepared briefing books, just as they did for Mr. Staats.

Dr. Trask   Did OCICwork on the briefing books a lot?

Ms. Rubar   011:yes. When I was in the transportation attorneys group, we occasion-
            ally would prepare testimony for someone to give before a congressional
            committee, ITsually, we would draft the testimony for Mr. Weitzel. We
            would draft the testimony on a particular transportation topic because
            we knew more about transportation than he did.

            And several times, I went up to testify with Mr. [Edwin] Cimokowski. I
            can’t remember going tip with someone else, except. possibly with Mr.
            Weitzel. And then, aft.er I got into the Special Studies and Analysis
            Group, we did a good deal of preparing briefing books for testimony that
            the C,omptroller General, Mr. Staats, would be giving, and one of the
            att.orneys went occasionally with him.

            We worked a great. deal on lobbying legislation with Mr. Keller when C;AO
            was supporting a bill to regulate lobbying the Congress by lawyers and
            other people. We worked on that for a number of years with Mr. Keller,
            and I know that. Mr. St.aats would Come and discuss t.he testimony with
            him. But Mr. Keller carried the full responsibility for it. In OGC,I and
            attorneys who were working for me had the responsibility to prepare
            the testimony.

            I remember one very competent young lawyer, Mike I3urns. He handled
            the lobbying for mc, and the bill did not go through. We were so sure it
            would, and it did not go through. Shortly after that, Mike Burns left GAO.
            I remember Mr. Keller saying to me, “I think that had something to do
            with it.” And then Ken Mead handled it the next year, and again we felt
            we were pretty close, but we did not make it. I t.hink we sort of dropped
            it.

            Of course, GAO did an audit of the Federal Bureau of Investigation [YIU],
            the domestic intelligence operation. Not until after Mr. [J. Edgar] Hoover
            passed on to his reward did the General Government Division conduct


            Pagt 39
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
               March 15,198s




               an audit. It was the first audit ever of FRI operations, and we handled
               the legal parts of it in our section. We testified with Mr. Staats, and I
               remember Father [Robert] Drinan from Boston College, who was a Con-
               gressman then, a competent one; he did his homework. When you got to
               the counsel table and when the questioning began, you could tell the
               people there who didn’t know too much of what was in the GAO report.

               But Father Drinan would have gone through that report with a fine-
               toot.h comb and made notes and would be asking quest.ions. He really
               gave me a hard time, t,rying to get me to say as a lawyer that the black
               bag jobs the E’RIhad done-where it had actually illegally ent.ered
               houses and apartments and planted bugs--constit.uted felonies of brcak-
               ing and entering and that they were burglaries. I ended up giving my old
               law school definition, which took me off the hook.

               But there were several times when Mr. Staats would cut him off when
               he had been asking me the same question over and over and over in
               different ways to try to get the answer that he wanted. Mr. Staats was
               great at that because they had such respect for him. IIe would say. “I
               think that Ms. Rubar has given you the answer.” They stopped asking
               the questions because t.hcir respect for him was just very palpable.

Mr. Eschwege   Gerry, was this testimony involving an audit report or was this a sepa-
               rate matter dealing with a bill?

Ms. Rubar      This was an audit report. Dick Fogel was the audit manager.

Dr. Trask      As part of Mr. Campbell’s reorganization in 1956, the Office of Lcgisla-
               tivc Liaison was established, marking the first time there had been a
               formal operation of that kind. Later on, this became of course the Office
               of Congressional Relations [NC]. Did that affect your work in any way.
               or did it have any impact on the way that t,he Office of the General
               Counsel operated in terms of legislative matters?

Ms. Rubar      Procedurally, it had an effect on our work. At least it did on mine and
               my colleagues’ in the sense that we now had an extra group of people t,o
               deal with. When we had to prepare comments on bills, we always had to
               keep the Office of Legislative Liaison informed of the status of our work
               on a particular bill, If it was a really lengthy, complex transportation
               bill, a good deal of time would be taken in waiting for reports from the
               operating division. I think that every 10 days, we had to provide status
               reports to the Office of Legislative Liaison.



               Page 40
                              Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                              Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                              March X,1989




                              So, to that extent, yes, it put an extra layer of people to be notified and
                              dealt with. If we went up to testify, the Office of Legislative Liaison
                              made the arrangements with the committees and usually accompanied
                              US.

Mr. Eschwege                  This office, which later became OCR, was at least at some point in time
                              put under Bob Keller.

Mrs. Shea                     Yes, it was. He was in charge.

Mr. Eschwege                  If I remember correctly, they met only once a week for the longest time,
                              and later on, I think that they met two times a week, but they were
                              always huddling in Bob Keller’s office before they went to the big OCR
                              meeting. There were some very interesting people that were in this
                              office.

Ms. R,ubar                    It was in the Office of the General Counsel while Mr. Keller was General
                              Counsel. And when he became Assistant Comptroller General, it went
                              with him.


Contact      With Executive
Agencies
Dr. Trask                     What about contacts with executive agencies, not only from the OGC
                              point of view, but in more general terms? Were there any particular ser-
                              vices that OGI’ provided in relationships with the executive agencies?

Ms. Rubar                     Margaret, you must have had many contacts.

Mrs. Macfarlane               Well, not really, because after the legal reference services were restruc-
                              tured, I was mostly engaged in administrative work. We lost our per-
                              sonal touch with Mr. Keller after t.he liaison group was formed because,
                              as Gerry said, there was then another layer there. So we were mostly
                              engaged just in administrative work. It wasn’t as interesting as work
                              done when we were actually producing something for Mr. Keller, Mr.
                              Weitzel, Mr. Kane, or Mr. Eckert.

Mr. Eschwege                  Didn’t the executive branch sometimes write in to GAO for formal and
                              informal decisions and opinions‘?




                              Page 41
            Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
            Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
            March 15, 1989




Ms. Rubar   Yes, While I was a transportation attorney, I worked for Ed Cimohw-
            ski. He did a great deal of work on the telephone with executive agen-
            cies. They would call him and ask him transportation quest,ions, and he
            could give the answers based on his own knowledge. Sometimes, queS-
            tions would require a little research, and he’d assign them to someone.

            ln the later years, while I was still in transportation, a fair number of
            telephone calls came to me and I would be able to give guidance on the
            telephone. I remember people calling me a great deal from AID (Agency
            for International Development] and from the Peace Carps with transpor-
            tation questions. They were basic legal questions, so it didn’t take much
            effort to answer them.

            Of course, as you say, there were requests for decisions coming in all the
            time. The famous decision, which I’m sure Mr. Staats or Mr. Dembling
            would have told you about, was rendered when Vice President Agnew
            resigned. He wanted continued Secret Service protection around his
            house after he was off the payroll. We said, “Stop it or we’ll cut off t.he
            Treasury money.” We did get a good many of those. I remember one case
            in particular because it also demonstrated the good relationship Mr.
            Staats had with Mr. Weitzel.

            The case involved a contract back in the 19ciOsfor transporting petro-
            leum, oil, and lubricants to the Distant Early Warning Stations in Alaska
            and along the Arct,ic. Of course, as you know, the Yukon River is frozen
            all winter long.

            Well, the Air Force had to get all this material to these stations in the
            summer when the ice was out on the Yukon River. We had Senator
            Gruening-and at one point, the other Senator from Alaska joined
            him-questioning     us about the Air Force procurement of the transporta-
            tion services for the 1966 season.

            The Air Force sole-sourced with lJtana Barge Lines, which was owned
            by the Alaska Railroad, which in t,urn was owned by the LJnited States
            then. The traffic had been shared in earlier seasons between those orga-
            nizations and a trucking company and its subsidiary barge line, Inland
            Waterways.

            So, in 196G, the Air Force gave all the business to Alaska Railroad and
            Utana and other firms protested and, as I say, the Senator did too.
            Transportation normally is performed on a bill of lading, and they did
            issue bills of lading for t.his, but the Air Force contracted for the entire


            Page 42
                         Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                         Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                         March lb,1989




                                          --
                         season’s procurement with the railroad and its barge line, We had to
                         look into this, and we came up with a very lengthy decision. I was look-
                         ing at it the other night and it was really long, about 12 single-spaced
                         pages.

                         We concluded that we couldn’t, cancel the procurement because they had
                         to move the stuff, and it, was June 1966, I think, when we issued this
                         decision. We criticized the Air Force strongly, however, for not adhering
                         to proper procedures and regulations. The private companies were
                         really upset, and they called Mr. Staats. So he called a meeting. Mr.
                         Staats, now, had been in (;AO for only about 2 months or, at the most, 3.
                         So he called us to come up and talk abont, it, and he had Mr. Weitzel
                         tt1crc.

                         Mr. Weitzel had signed the decision. When we all sat around the table,
                         Mr. Ytaats said, “Give me just a few minutes to skim this over and
                         refresh my memory,” and he did. Then he turned and looked at Mr.
                         Weitzel, and he said, “Frank, I agree with everything you said here. You
                         were absolutely right in signing this, and I approved it at the time. Now,
                         where do we go from here?”

                         It wasjust so nice to see him turn to Mr. Weitzcl and treat him as he
                         deserved to be.


Dealing With the Media
Dr. Trask                I have just one other question in this arca having to do with GAO’S rela-
                         tionships with the media and particularly media coverage of GAOactivi-
                         ties. It wasn’t really until Mr. Staats came that there was an Information
                         Officer. Koland Sawyer was the first one brought in. Did OGCget
                         involved at, all in media relationships or in responding to media inquiries
                         or inquiries for information?

Mrs. Shea                Mr. Keller answered many questions from newspaper people. Mr. Kciler
                         talked to Mr. .John Cramer many times. There was Jerry Klutz. Of
                         course, these were newspaper columnists writing about government. He
                         also talked with Charles Stevenson, Gene Methuise. and Ken Gilmore of
                         the Reader’s Digest,. Articles about GAOappeared in this magazine. Mr.
                         Keller also an=d       questions asked by Shirley Scheibla and Robert
                         Bleiberg of Barron’s. IIe spoke also to CJackAnderson and Clark Mol-
                         lenhoff; they wrote many articles about NO. Kichard Andmon of the



                         Page 43
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March l&1989




                  Saint Louis Post Dispatch called Mr. Keller when he needed a fast
                  answer. He was in touch with The New York Times, The Wall Street
                  -Journal, Business Week, and others. As a dedicated government execu-
                  tive, Mr. Keller always responded promptly to these inquiries. We did
                  not have a formal press office then.

Dr. Trask         So the function was being carried out but not on the kind of formal basis
                  that existed when Mr. Staats established this special office’!

Mrs. Shea         I don’t think Mr. Campbell cared for too much contact with the press.

Mr. Eischwege     Or the executive agencies, I would say. Is that a fair statement?

Ms. Fiubar        Well, he really couldn’t avoid contact with them because they had the
                  right to ask us for decisions on particular matters,

Mr. Elschwege     Well, I understand, but. he didn’t favor contacts other than for such offi-
                  cial business.

Ms. Ftubar        Yes.

Mr. Elschwege     You know what happened under Mr. Staats and what happens today.
                  We have been meeting t.hcse people; the relationship is not always neccs-
                  sarily an adverse one. But we meet. to find out what their philosophy is
                  and to get them to understand how we go about doing our audit. So we
                  invite them over for lunch or something like that. I’m not sure that, ever
                  happened under Mr. Campbell.

Ms. Rubar         No, I don’t imagine so

Dr. Trask         Of course, today media relationships arc really big business in tine, and
                  if you read the papers every day, there arc one or two or three stories
                  about GAO; so it’s a very busy area.

Mrs. Macfarlane   You never used to hear of GAO out in my part of the country, and now
                  it’s frequent, every day.

Mrs. Shea         You read about GAOin The New York Times and The Wall Street .Journal
                  almost every day.




                  Page 44
                        Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                        Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                        March 15,1989




Services Provided by
Legislative Reference
Units
Mr, Eschwege            Well, just a little bit more about the Index and Digest Section and the
                        Legal Reference Section that we talked about earlier, Mrs. Mac. We had
                        these published and unpublished decisions. Did they come under your
                        .jurisdiction to compile and reproduce?

Mrs. Macfarlane         Yes.

Mr. Eschwege            Would you explain, for our general information, the difference between
                        a published and an unpublished decision‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane         Well, I guess that was decided before it came to our Legislative or Index
                        and Digest Section. We did have some guidelines, but the distinction was
                        mainly a personal decision by the person who was in charge of the
                        office. We always made our decisions available to anybody that would
                        come in, even in Mr. Fisher’s time. The media had open access to our
                        decisions and the reporters would come in every week to go over the
                        decisions. So there wasn’t any holding back.

Mr. E,schwege           The published and the unpublished decisions‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane         Yes.

Ms. Rubar               Margaret, when you decided to publish a decision, didn’t you do so gen-
                        erally because you thought it had broader application than the particu-
                        lar example that formed the basis for the question?

Mrs. Macfarlane         Yes. It was impossible, of course, to publish all the decisions, even in the
                        days when they were handled by the Comptroller of the Treasury, so
                        there had to be selectivity. Many times, the attorneys would say that
                        certain decisions were worthy of publication or Mr. Keller or Mr. Weitzel
                        would note on the drafts that they should be published. So it was sort of
                        a cooperative effort.

Mr. E;schwege           Also, maybe you were not officially so designated, but on the basis of
                        some of your writings in The GAO Review, which was GAO'S quarterly
                        publication, I would say that you, Mrs. Mac, were sort of a GAO historian
                        yourself in terms of analyzing some of our basic legislation and keeping


                        Page 45
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15,1989




                  us informed of major hearings and new legislation that was coming up.
                  Did that take a lot of your time?

Mrs. Macfarlane   Oh, yes.

Mr. Elschwege     Did you do that mostly yourself, or did you have people helping you
                  with that‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane   Well, I had a wonderful staff, and, yes, I had people helping me to do
                  that sort of thing.

Mr. Elschwege     You wrote an article that I read myself entitled “The Day That President
                  Wilson Vetoed the Budget and Accounting Bill.” The issue there was the
                  selection and removal of the Comptroller General. I learned something
                  there too. There was Congressman [James] Good, who had a proposal
                  that the Comptroller General be appointed by the Supreme Court and
                  that rather than having the Congress remove the Comptroller General
                  either through impeachment or a joint resolution, the Supreme Court
                  also be the group to remove the Comptroller General for cause. Of
                  course, that bill didn’t go through. Rut I found that to be a very interest-
                  ing article.

Dr. R-ask          I want to ask a question about the legislative histories because they
                   seem to me to be a very unique and extremely valuable collection, prob-
                   ably not duplicated anywhere else in the government, as far as I know.

Ms. Rubar          I remember Mr. Dembling’s saying that there was nothing anywhere else
                   in the government like the legislative histories that we had compiled.

Dr. R-ask          They cover not just legislation relating to GAO. A lot of agencies do legis-
                   lative histories of legislation relating to their own business, but this is all
                   legislation that involves major government functions.

Mrs. Macfarlane    We even have them for private bills. We started compiling the legislative
                   histories, and we tried to repackage them and put them into better
                   shape.

Dr. R-ask          I think it may still be a well-kept secret that we have all these legislative
                   histories, I don’t know that there’s too much outside use of these, but I
                   know a good many historians who, if they knew about the collection,
                   would probably flock in here to use them.

Ms. litubar        They were invaluable to the lawyers in doing our work.


                   Page 46
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15,1989




Mrs. Macfarlane   Many times when our people went up to the Hill, the IIill people realized
                  how comprehensive our files were. Mr. [Robert R.] Casey, formerly a
                  General Counsel’s assistant, when assigned to a congressional staff was
                  very impressed with GX)‘S legislative files, particularly on the Maritime
                  Act and all the amendments. He would have congressional staff persons
                  come down here and go through a course with us to see how we com-
                  piled the legislative histories. That was always a compliment to us and
                  our services.

Mr. Eschwege      Another thing that maybe was unique was that you had an early way of
                  communicating with the professional and maybe nonprofessional staff
                  in the Office of the General Counsel, as well as all of c;x). We referred to
                  it off-camera before as the Friday Flash. Could you explain that to me?

Mrs. Macfarlane   I guess I started it around 1960 when I was in charge of the Digest Ycc-
                  tion. We thought that it was a way of communicating among different
                  areas of oc;c’.I think originally the different areas were sort of isolated.
                  The bulletin was to keep the communications a little bit closer than we’d
                  had before. We published each week decisions and hints about history
                  and so forth.

Ms. Rubar         You’d reprint entire Supreme Court decisions, for example, when you
                  got early copies before they were generally available, and that was so
                  useful to us. And then you included the little items about staff that we
                  wouldn’t have ordinarily known. If we were in transportation, we
                  wouldn’t know about somebody having a baby over in procurement-
                  things you like t.o know about.

Mr. Eschwege      So it also served the purpose of discussing some social activities. And
                  this was done under I3ob Keller, w?hile he was General Counsel‘?

Ms. Rubar         Yes.

Dr. Trask         IIow long did that last‘!

Mrs. Macfarlane   We had a man in our Digest Section, Walter Eliff, who served for 50
                  years. He worked on the newsletter. IIc kept on working so that he could
                  serve 50 years. Wc had a big Walter Eliff Day.

Mr. Eschwege      Is he still around‘?

Mrs. Macfarlane   No, unfortunately. Mr. Keller and Mr. Weitzel came down to honor him.
                  That was one of the very pleasant things about working with Mr. Keller


                  Page 47
                Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                March 15,1989




                and Mr. Weitzel; they always took part in whatever activity the clerical
                staff or the lower-level staff had.

Mrs. Shea       In addition to keeping the Friday Flash, Mrs. Macfarlane kept clippings
                of all newspapers and things that referred to the General Accounting
                Office. I wondered if those are still around because there was a wealth
                of information in them. Mr. Keller used them a lot. So did Mr. Weitzel
                and Mr. Campbell, and I’m sure Mr. Staats did too.

Mr. E:schwege   So you really served part of the function of an information officer.
                Every day now, GAO puts out Clippings, a compilation of articles
                obtained from various newspapers. Laura Kopelson of the Office of Pub-
                lic Information gathers that. She gets up early in the morning to pick up
                the newspapers. I3y about, 8 a.m., the Clippings reach the desks of top
                Gno officials.

Ms. Rubar       Another thing that Margaret got started was that very useful Congres-
                sional Record Digest,. Every legislative day, it came out, and it, synop-
                sized not only the bills that had been introduced in the House and in the
                Senate, but anything relating to GAO legislative activit.y.

Mr. Elschwege   It was a white sheet that found its way on top of the Congressional Rec-
                ord for the previous day.

                As a division director, I was always impressed with how fast that was
                put together and placed on my desk.

Mrs. Shea       Mrs. Mac was in the office at 6 o’clock in the morning.

Ms. Rubar       It didn’t come out like that after she retired.

Dr. Trask       Concerning those clippings, just the other day, the Law Librarian called
                and said that she had some clippings that the History Program might be
                interested in. So we went up there, and we got several volumes. On the
                basis of what you just t.old LE., I’m sure that they must be the ones that
                you or your people compiled. They particularly covered the Campbell
                period. They are pasted clippings in a loose-leaf notebook. The History
                Program has an archives, and we collect things like that.

Mrs. Shea       A wonderful file. And it contained articles not from just The Washington
                Pose, but from every newspaper and some magazines. Mrs. Mac would
                buy those papers and magazines.



                Page 48
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15,1989




Dr. Trask         Well, it was a very good service, and now it’s going to help us put the
                  record together again.

Mrs. Macfarlme    That makes me feel good.

Mr. Eschwege      Did you see the Friday Flash too?

Dr. Tritik        I’m going to check on that because I don’t think I’ve seen any of it. I’d
                  like to have a collection of it. That’s why I asked how long it was put
                  out, because that would be useful to have.

Ms. Rubar         You know, if you’d only asked that 6 years ago before I retired, my bot-
                  tom desk drawers were filled with things like that.

Dr. Trask         I hate to hear things like that.

Ms. Rutbar        I am a real pack rat, and I never throw anything away. I had a four-
                  drawer filing cabinet that was just filled with things, even from my
                  transportation days. I left it all there, and somebody, naturally, threw it
                  all out and took over the cabinet and took over the desk.

Dr. Trask         Well, fortunately, we do have a complete collection of Watchdogs. We
                  are making efforts to find things like this from people who kept things.
                  We have had some success, but, unfortunately, GAO didn’t have a history
                  program 20 or 30 years ago.



Comments on GAO
Officials
Dr. Track         We had some comments on various people who served in GAO and people
                  who were here during your tenure. There are some other names that I’d
                  simply like to mention and see what kind of comments any or all of you
                  may have.

                  First, Frank Yates. There’s been mention of Frank Yates, but what can
                  you say about his role or his contributions to GAO?

Ms. Rubar         All I can say is that he was the Assistant Comptroller General when I
                  came here during the war. I think I may have seen him once in the office




                  Page 49
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15,1989




                  and then at the cornerstone laying [of the   GAO   Building]. But that’s all. 1
                  didn’t have any contact with him.

Dr. l’rask        Any other impressions?

Mrs. Macfarlane   Well, Ms. Blanche Margason Wilcox worked for Mr. Yates and had great
                  loyalty to him. I would think that he really was the first one that helped
                  start a legislative unit. Because of her learning through him, I feel
                  always very grateful for the teaching that Blanche was able to provide
                  to me. I don’t think we saw him very often.

Mrs. Shea         He was always busy in his office. I was new, so I didn’t know Mr. Yates
                  too well. I was always impressed with him.

Dr. Trask         What about Mr. Weitzel? We’ve talked about him some, but perhaps
                  there are some other things that you would like to say.

Mrs. Macfarlane   I think we all echo the same things that Stella and Gerry have said. It
                  was a privilege to work for him, and we were all very grateful to have
                  worked at GAO at the time when he was here. He was a great person.
                  Working with Mr. Weitzel and Mr. Keller was certainly the highlight of
                  my years of service here.

Mrs. Shea         Mine too.

Ms. Rubar         These ladies knew him, of course, much better than I did, but we’ve spo-
                  ken of his kindness, and whenever anyone would retire in the Transpor-
                  tation Division in my days of working there, there would be a little
                  retirement party for the individual. The retiree might not be a division
                  director or a section chief but an ordinary transportation rate specialist.

                  Mr. Weitzel would always manage to come down to that party and say
                  something nice. He might even be late, but he’d get there and say some
                  kind things and present the gift. You could always depend on that.

Dr. ‘I’rask       What about Elmer Staats as Comptroller General?

Ms. Rubar         Well, I just think Mr. Staats was wonderful. I think he did a great deal to
                  help women and minorities and to try to eradicate any kind of prejudice
                  that existed, whether it was prejudice against women or prejudice
                  against particular minorities. I thought he did a great deal for the
                  agency with his reorganizations. He helped to bring us not only into the



                  Page 50
                   Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                   Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                   March 15. 1989




                   20th century but into the later 20th century. I just felt very proud of
                   working for him.

Dr. Trask          There were four General Counsels whose names I want to mention to see
                   if you have any comments about them--.John McFarland, Lyle Fisher,
                   Paul Dembling, and Milt Soco1a.r.

Mrs. Macfarlane    Well. I didn’t meet Mr. McFarland until his retirement party or recep-
                   tion. I don’t believe it was a party. It. was just a speech before a group of
                   the attorneys. I realized then that on one of my first days here in the
                   office in &zo, I had almost knocked him down one morning rushing to
                   work. He was not. like Mr. Fisher. who would come down t.o talk to the
                   attorneys. IIe stayed in his office. IsnY t,hat, right, StelIa?

Mrs. Shea          I didn’t know Mr. M(sFarland. Mr. Fisher was Gtlneral Counsel when I
                   came in.

Ms. Rubar          Mr. Fisher hired me when they nccdcd a transportation lawyer and
                   couldn’t find enc. It. was Mr. Fisher whom I talked to; the attitude about
                   women was such that I was concerned about coming. .Jed IVc>lch[,J.
                   Edward Welch]-God rest his soul-was, I think, an Associate General
                   Counsel at, t.hat time. So Jed knew when I passed the bar, and he said
                   that was wonderful, but he said to tell me not to think I was ever going
                   to come to work in the General Counsel’s office because that office will
                   never have a woman. I did not apply for any job. They called me and
                   asked me if I would c’omc up and be interviewed.

                   So I insisted on talking with Mr. Fisher because I wanted to see a little
                   bit more about his attitude. I found him to be ptlrfe(:tly charming, and he
                   explained why the view that hc would not havchwomen had gotten
                   around. There had been a woman, apparently a long time before, who
                   had been extremely difficult. and, of course, men could bc difficult and
                   get away with it in those times, but women could not.

                   Anyway, I found him to be very nice: and I didn’t have that much con-
                   lact with him, but I had great respect for his abilities, his mental acu-
                   men: and his Iegal abilities. I thought, he was a very good General
                   Counsel.

Mrs. M acfarlane   He was far different from Mr. McFarland because hc took a personal
                   interest in the attorneys and their assignments. I think also he delegated
                   more responsibility to the attorney staff than Mr. McFarland did.



                   Page 51
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 16.1989




Mrs. Shea         I worked in a typing pool when I first came to the General Accounting
                  Office. Mr. Fisher called for me every once in a while to fill in when the
                  secretaries to the assistants or the associates or the General Counsel
                  were off on leave. I worked for Mr. Fisher for a while, and I thought
                  very highly of him, And then when he recommended me to Mr. Keller, 1
                  thought even more highly of him. [Laughter]

Dr. Trask         There are three more names, and these are particularly suggested to
                  Gerry. David Neumann, A, Banks Thomas, and Harrell D. Hoagland.

Ms. Rubar         David Neumann was the Division Director [of the Claims Division] who
                  interviewed me when 1 came to GAO,whom I told you about this morn-
                  ing, and whose secretary asked me if I could “taap.“ He was the one
                  who promised me the carpet. on t.he floor. He retired some time during
                  the war in 1945. A. Banks Thomas succeeded him, so I guess he’s t,he one
                  who fired me. I never knew him very well. I just knew him to see him, so
                  I really can’t. make much of a comment on him. Mr. Hoagland [Chief of
                  the Transportation Division] was a good person, and since he himself
                  was a lawyer, I think he had a feeling and understanding of the few
                  lawyers we did have in the Transportation Division. He made a big fuss
                  over me when I passed the bar because I hadn’t t,aken a bar review
                  course.

                  He told me, when I came to the General Counsel’s office, that he and Mr.
                  Weitzel had agreed that if I was not. happy in the General Counsel’s
                  office, I could come back to the Transportation Division and would be
                  welcomed back. So I have nice memories of Mr. IIoagland also.

Dr. Trask         I want to mention just one more name, and that’s Ted Westfall, who
                  played an important role in GAO’Saudit activities between 1946 and
                  1952. Any real recollections of him or comments about him?

Mrs, Macfarlane   The only thing I remember is that he was interested in legislative files,
                  and it seemed like he would come to our section to ask about the files
                  frequently.

Mr. Eschwege      He went to law school too while he worked at GAO.

Mm Macfarlane     That’s right, while he was there. I guess that’s maybe the reason why he
                  came to us.

Mr. Eschwege      He also always wanted to get into the legal aspects of anything that he
                  was auditing. This is something we’d do today almost, as a natural thing,


                  Page 52
                   Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                   Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                   March 15,198s




                   but, in those days, I guess, if you were auditing, you didn’t worry too
                   much about the legal aspects. I think he was a prime mover in that
                   direction. He was also well-known as a person who did a lot of surveys
                   around the Office, coming up with survey reports, which you might
                   remember because they resulted in some organizational changes. Do you
                   recall?

Mrs. Mlacfarlane   Yes, Let’s see, I think our Legislative Digest Section was involved in a
                   survey that he lmd done.

Dr. Track          The major reorganization of 1951-52 really was the result of his
                   surveys.

Ms. Rubar          Roger, you started to ask us about Mr. Keller and Mr. Dembling as Gen-
                   eral Counsels.

Dr. Trek           Yes.

Ms. Rubar          Well, I didn’t have that much contact with Mr. Keller until after he
                   became Deputy Comptroller General and I was in the Special Studies and
                   Analysis Section. I really got to feel I knew him a little bit, and after I
                   did get to know him, I really loved him.

                   Mr. Dembling, I thought, did a great deal for the Office of the General
                   Counsel. He was wonderful to work with because he had a sense of
                   humor and because he operated in a very subtle fashion. He didn’t
                   decide abruptly to change something and announce the change. He just
                   sort of worked into t.hings, and it became a fait accompli before anybody
                   had a chance not to like it. They liked it.

                   When he left and Milton Socolar took over, it was like a continuation
                   because Milt had been his deputy. We couldn’t have done any better.
                   They were and are wonderful people to work for, and they never made
                   you feel you worked for them. They made you feel you worked with
                   them. and that’s wonderful.

Mr. Eschwege       Well, I think they worked very well with the audit divisions also, and as
                   you mentioned earlier, Paul Dembling really thought of the idea of
                   working much more closely with the auditors, trying to make this one
                   GAO,instead of the General Counsel being over here and the auditors
                   over there. And, of course, GAO’s various offices also came together more
                   under Mr. Staats than before, when really the Civil Division and the
                   Defense Division were like two GAOS.


                   Page 53
                     Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                     Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                     March 15,1989




Ms. IRubar           Yes, we had such a we-versus-them attitude. We were the lawyers, and
                     they were the opposition, sort of. And Mr. Dembling said that when he
                     came, he was very appalled because, at ~XSA,the lawyers worked with
                     their operating divisions’ people. IIe had a great deal of opposition in
                     setting up our section, and, as I say, he did it very subtly and we were
                     there almost before people realized it..

                     By the time they realized it, there were some who are retired now, t,hank
                     goodness, who were very reluctant. They tried to buck the change every
                     stop of the way. One Associat.e General Counsel’s section and the Associ-
                     ate General Counsel himself delayed the office memorandums to the
                     divisions on their legal questions for so long-often a year and more. He
                     objected strenuously to any closer working relationships and said, “Just
                     give me more people and I’ll get their decisions out to them faster.”



Re.flections and
Thoughts About GAO
Mr. Eschwege         Well, I think we’re getting to the point where we have looked back long
                     enough that we need to kind of look a little bit ahead, except for one
                     more thing I did want, you to comment on. That might still be looking
                     back, but looking back years after you’ve been there is a little different
                     from looking back the minute you leave.

                     In that respect, I’d like you to be not too modest now and let us know
                     what you think your personal accomplishments were. You can mix in
                     some of the disappointments that you had or the things that you would
                     have liked to accomplish.

Mrs. Shea            I only have compliments about the General Accounting Office. I’m glad I
                     came to the District of Columbia in 1948, and I’m pleased the Civil Ser-
                     vice Commission sent me to the General Accounting Office. It was an
                     honor and a privilege to work for and with Messrs. Warren, Weitzel, Kel-
                     ler, Campbell, and 3.aat.s.

                     When I left the bank, 1 was making a total sum of $65 a month, and they
                     paid us by the month. So when I came to the General Accounting Office
                     and received $1,400 a year, I thought I was wealthy. 1 wasn’t in the
                     typing pool very long because I started in December of 1948, and I was
                     assigned to work for Mr. Keller in November of 1960. From then on,



                     Page 54
               Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
               Geraldine Rubar, and Stclla Shea,
               March l&1989




                                        --
               everything was very nice. 1 hdvc no complaints. I only have COmpli-
               ments, not only for Mr. Keller but, for everybody I worked with.

               Mrs. Macfarlane helped me a great deal. Whenever Mr. Keller said I
               want, so and so: I’d dial Mrs. MacF&rlane’s office and I’d have it in about
               5 minutes.

               So I just wish the General Accounting Office and everybody in it lots
               and lots of good luc*k

Mr. Eschwege   That sounds great. Well, Gerry, you don’t necessa.rily have to agree with
               t,hat. assessment.

Ms. Rubar      Well, as a mat.tor of fact, 1 do. I will say that I have been very proud of
               working for (;x~ even from the very beginning during the war and even
               when they fired me. As you mentioned sometime back, c;no didn’t have
               the greatest reputation with other execmive agencies: but 1 could
               always say to people that we’re not spending their money. We’re getting
               money back, and we’re seeing that people don’t take government money
               that they’re not. entitled t,o.

               In my entire career, I’ve been very proud and more so as the years have
               gone on and many improvements were made. I c$an’tsay that I had any
               great disappointments. The only disappointment. was that I kept on get-
               ting older and the time finally came to retire. I would love t.o be a young
               lawyer now, working in CTAO    with all the changes and improvements that
               have come even during the 6 years since I left. It’s a great place to work.

Mr. Eschwege   Let me ask you one more question. Aside from what you feel about your
               personal accomplishments as a lawyer in the field that you were in, at.
               least. some of us felt, like J’ic Lowe. whom you remember, the former
               Director of the General Government Division-

Ms. Rubar      Very fondly.

Mr. Eschwege   -and I and others that there is Gerry Rubar, one of the first ~40 women
               lawyers working directly with the divisions. Didn’t that make you feel
               like you were pioneering in efforts to bring more women to GAO:’

Ms. Rubar      Yes. In fact, I should say also, in looking over my past, that the last 10
               years were far and away the happiest of my career. I felt, a greater sense
               of accomplishment. and those were the 10 years that I was working with



               Page 5.5
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15, 1989




                  the audit divisions and teaching young attorneys, the new recruits that
                  came in and were assigned to me. That was great fun.

                  I felt, I guess, that I was a little bit of a pioneer, but don’t forget that
                  there were people in the Office of the General Counsel like Margaret
                  when I came, so that I didn’t feel isolated. There were people helping me
                  to meet other people and to get acquainted with them. In fact, Greg
                  Ahart {former Director of the Human Resources Division] had me speak
                  t.o groups in his division once back in the 1970s and talk a little bit about
                  being one of the first woman lawyers in the Office and what it was like.
                  He was working on his people to get them to advance women and minor-
                  it.ies in GAO. He had some really hidebound men in his group who did not
                  like women auditors any more than they likod women lawyers.

Mr. Eschwege      I’m sure we had some too. I will bc the first to admit it.

Ms. Rubar         Well, I didn’t encounter it in your division or in Vie Lowe’s division. But
                  because Greg Ahart set up these group meetings, I got to see a little bit
                  of that.

                  I remember a young woman auditor who was on a panel with me. She
                  talked about difficulties in her first assignment. in the division where her
                  supervisor was always having her come to his desk to look at these
                  spreadsheets she was working on. The next thing was that his arm was
                  coming over and his hand was patting her. She described how upset she
                  was by this behavior. One of the men who was there said, “Well, little
                  Ellen or Mary or whatever her name is, what did you do to invite that
                  kind of behavior’?’ You know that. was the attitude of some of these
                  people.

Mr. Eschwege      That’s changing, I hope. We are not completely there.

Mrs. Macfarlane   They’ve all said it so well, and. of course, I loved working in ~;AOtoo. I
                  guess the greatest pleasure I had was seeing the people that had come
                  through my shop going to better positions in GAOand the fact that many
                  of them stayed in GAO. A few of them came back to GAO, to the Office of
                  the General Counsel. I always felt they were better attorneys after they
                  returned for having had a chance to see what private practice or some
                  other government agency was like.

                  It did take a little talking to get people back on the roll after they had
                  left, but we fortunately always made it.



                  Page 56
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                  March 15, 1989




Mr. Ekhwege       Considering the kinds of activities in which you were involved in GAO-
                  legal research I would call it-and handling a lot of aspects of GAO that
                  involved its activities with the Congress and, as you mentioned earlier,
                  with the media, was that a satisfying activity? Was this the kind of work
                  that you felt most comfortable in? Were you ever thinking of maybe
                  joining the other groups, for example, those involved in decision
                  writing?

Mrs. Macfarlane   Not really, I guess. I preferred doing things rather than being a supervi-
                  sor. I liked doing the Congressional Record and doing legislative histo-
                  ries and research.

Mr. Ekchwege      Well, the price you sometimes pay for being very good is that you get
                  promoted up to a point where you can’t just do all the things you really
                  like to do, but there is a higher salary that comes with it, and I noticed
                  you got promoted frequently. I noticed you got 12 outstanding ratings in
                  21 years.

                  I got that from some of your friends, Also you got many different
                  awards. Of course, all you ladies got a lot of awards, Let’s see if we can’t
                  get some advice from you out of all this. You’ve been following GAO since
                  you left, and you indicated that you really are still very close to GAO.
                  The newspapers help you today to find out what GAO is doing.

                  Obviously, we can still improve. We could maybe take on some new role
                  or change something we’re doing now. Have you given any thought to
                  some things that maybe we should do differently? Don’t be afraid to tell
                  us.

Mrs. Shea         I don’t think anything should be done differently. You all do a great job.
                  I’m with Gerry. I wish that I were 20 years younger so that I could come
                  back to the General Accounting Office.

Ms. Ilubar        Well, I’ll tell you, what I believed for years should be done has already
                  been done in the Office of the General Counsel. I believed, after I began
                  working with the audit divisions and after we saw, in the Special Studies
                  and Analysis Section, that the divisions could use much more help. As I
                  think I said earlier, I used to tell Mr. Dembling that we needed as many
                  lawyers to work with the divisions as we had to do the decision writing.
                  Now that OGC has reorganized, all the attorneys are now having respon-
                  sibility to work with some of the operating divisions, and I think that’s
                  wonderful.



                  Page 57
                Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                Geraldine Rubar, and Stella Shea,
                March L5,1989




-.                                                                                           -
                And it’s good for the attorneys professionally as well because all of
                them now get a crack at decision writing and all of them get a crack at
                working with the operating divisions and, thus, getting out, to other
                agencies often and not. just sitting in their little cubicles.

Mrs. Shea       Margaret, you trained the young attorneys that came in. And they
                remember you too.

Ms. Rubar       Oh, you bet they do.

Mr. E,schwege   And there are at least two Comptrollers General that, I know, recognized
                Mrs. Mac’s services very much. There may have been more. I tell you,
                that column in The uo Review that you wrote and that you may think
                was not your most important activity sure made you visible to mc long
                before WC‘were close with OG(‘.I think that was very useful.


                Let me just say, and I know I’m speaking for the General Accounting
Con elusion     Office and for Mr. lsowsher! that we very much appreciate that you did
                come for this interview, especially since it took a little doing for you,
                Mrs. Mac, to come all the way from lSeavcr Dam, Wisconsin. We’re glad.
                after talking to Sttlla and Gerry, that we held up this meeting, which
                was supposed to take place last year, to include you on this panel. I
                think we’re all better off in ~lho for gaining some insights into that 40-
                year span of activity, some of which took place even before I came to
                (;/lo.

                So we want to thank you ladies and wish you well; stay as healthy as we
                find you today.

Dr. Trask       Let me just. add that these interviews, as 1 think probably you have
                found too, are always great learning experiences. I have certainly
                learned a great deal from this, and we shall put that to good use at some
                point. in writing about GAO'S history. You also have contributed signifi-
                cantly to our historical record, and this information will bc used from
                time to time as WC portray that record.

                So, on behalf of the Ilistory Program, let me express my appreciat,ion

Ms. Rubar       Thank you.

Mrs. Shea       It’s been a pleasurr



                Page SE
                  Interview With Margaret Macfarlane,
                  Geraldine Rubar, and Strlla Shea,
                  March 15, 1989




Mrs. Macfarlane   Yes. it has.




                  Page 59
Appendix

Videotape Cross-reference



               Tape 1          Introduction                                                                      00:00:55
                               Blograpkkal       Data                                                            oo-03-i 4
                               Positrons      Held In GAO                                                        00 24:oi
                               Robert     F. Keller’s Service to GAO                                             00 49:58
                               The Early Years In GAO Under Lindsay           Warren (1940-1954)                 00 55.50
                               The Campbell        Era (1954-1965)                                               01 21 25
                               The Staats Era                                                                    01 43 53
                                      .-.
               Tape 2          Evolution of Relations       With the Congress,      Agencies   and Media         0201     3j
                               Services      Provided   by Legislatwe   Reference     Units                      02-21.42
                               Comments        on GAO Off&Is                                                     02:35:04
                               ReflectIons     and Thoughts     About GAO                                        02:49:23
                               Conclusion                                                                        03:Ol 47

                The Table of Contents IS rrprodwzed     above, followed by t/me seqwnces    on the vIdeotape  The t/me
               sequence    lndlcates the begInning of the dlscusslon   of the partwlar topic on the videotape  Users of
               ths oral hlstory are adwsed to consult the Index for specific page references since these topics may
               appear in other places in the rranscclpt




               Page 60
 Index



A                                                                 D
Accountants,    at GAO, 22                                        Davies Ernest H., 3
Accounting and Bookkeepng         Divlslon, 9                     Davis, Sadye Jane. 9
Agency for InternatIonal Development        (AID), 42             0 C Publlc Library, 13
4gnew, Spiro, 42                                                  Declslons (GAO), 27, 45, 57. 58
Agricultural Adjustment   Act: 2                                  Defense contract audits, 31
Agricultural Adjustment   Agency, 1                               Defense, Department     of, 31
Agnculture, Department     of, 1, 36                              Defense Dlvlslon, 53
Ahart, Gregory J., 56                                             Dembling, Paul G 23. 35, 36, 37 42, 46, 51, 53, 54, 57
41r Force, U S 42-43                                              Depression,    1
Alaska Rarlroad, 42                                               Deputy Comptroller General, iv 1, 16. 29, 32, 53
4ndersori. Jack, 43                                               Digest Section (OGC), 3, 7, 8, 9. 10. 27 47
Andmon, Richard. 43                                               Discrimination   cases, 34-35
Army Secunty Agency, 12                                           Distant early warning systems, 42
AssIstant Comptroller General, 16, 29, 32 41, 50                  District of Columbia 5, 6
Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) 28                                 Dixon-Yates case, 28
4udlt Division. 8, 9                                              Dress code, 26
6                                                                 Drinan, Robert F ,40
Bailey. Josiah W 2                                                E
Barclay Henry, 27                                                 Eastman Thomas W 3
Barron’s 43                                                       Eckert Charles E 21. 41
Heaver Dam, WI, 1.58                                              Economic Warfare, Board of, 3
Herger Carl, 19                                                   Efros, Seymour, 9
Hlelberg, Robert, 43                                              Ellff Walter, 47-48
l3oston College, 40                                               Ellis, WIlllam, 8. 28
l3owsher, Charles A, 29 38. 58                                    EnvIronmental     Protection Agency (EPA), 36
13rewster, Mr 7. 8                                                Eschwege, Henry, v. 25
13rown. Fred t-l 17                                               Evers. Rob, 34
l3rown. Mildred, 9                                                Executive agencies, GAO contact with, 41-43
l3udget and Accounttng  Act of 1921, 46
l3urns. John, 10                                                  Federal Bureau of lnvesi;gatron (FBI}, 39-40
l3urns, Michael, 39                                               Federal Power CornmIssIon, 28
B,siness Week, 44                                                 Fegan. Dorothy, 18
 C                                                                Fisher Edwin Lyle. 7 8, 9, 10 23, 45, 50-51
 Campbell. Henrietta, 8                                           Fogel, Richard L., 40
 Campbel I era (1954-l 965) 25-31, 32, 48                         Forbes, Katherine, 7
 Campbell      Joseph. 17. 25-31, 38, 40, 44, 48, 54              Friday Flash, 47, 48. 49
 Casey Ralph 7                                                    Friedman,&       27
 Casey, Robert R 47                                               Fnendshlp Heights, 5
 Catholic IJnlverslty, 35
 r:hevy Chase, MD. 13                                             G
 Chrna. 3                                                         GAO Building, 21-22, 23-25. 50
 (:imokowski,     Edwin 39, 42                                    GAO Review, The, 46, 58
 (ho Dlvlsion 53                                                  General Counsel, Office of the, iv, 1 5, 8, 10, 15, 16. 18, 20, 26 27,
 c:ivrl Service Commlssion, 6, 7, 54                                 28. 30 31 35, 36 37,. 38, 39, 40, 47, 52, 53, 56
 Claims DIVISION IV, 10, 12, 15-16, 18. 19, 26 52                 General Government       Division (GGD), 36, 39, 55
 (Iippings    (GAO publtcatlon),   48                             Georgetown     University Law School 14, 35
Columbia Law School, IV, 8. 14, 35                                George Washington University, 2, 9, 35
Comprehl?nslve       audit, 22                                    GIlmore, Ken, 43
Congress       GAO relatlonshlps    with, 38-41                   Good, James, 46
Congressional      Record, 20, 48, 57                             Government     Corporation    Control Act (1945), 22
                                                                  Government     Ethics, Office of, 27
Congressional      Record Digest, 48, 57
                                                                  Government     Printing Office (GPO), 8: 20
l;onqresslonal     Relations. Office of. 40. 41                   Greenhouse,    James, 9
Connor, FI D W , 2                                                Gruenlng    Ernest, 27, 42
Conway IKate Ramey, 9
Cosgrove. Madge 9                                                 Ii
Cramer. John, 43                                                  Harris, Janle, 27

                                                                                                                               (continued)



                                                       Page 6 1
                                                    Index




Heagy, Maryellen, 38                                                           Milne School 4
Henry, Thela, 8-9, 20                                                          Minorities at GAO, 20, 50
Higgins, John, 9                                                               Moley. Raymond. 21
History Program, 48, 58                                                        Mollenhoff, Clark, 43
Hoagtand, Harrel D., 26, 52                                                    Montgomery    County, Md    13
Holifield hearings, 31                                                         MC
Hoov’er, Herbert C 2                                                           McCarl, J R.. 17
Hoover. J Edaar, 39                                                            McFarland, John, 51
Hornyak, Rita:lO, 27                                                           McKinley, Mr 21
Human Resources Divlslon, 56                                                   McLean Gardens, 5, 18.25
I                                                                              N
Illinois University of, 35                                                     NatIonal Aeronautics and Space AdministratIon   (NASA), 35, 54
Index and Digest Sectlon, 9 45                                                 NatIonal ArchIves, 2, 3
Index and Files Section, 10                                                    National University Law School, IV 2
Investigations,    Office of, 28, 29                                           Navy, U.S.. 12, 16
J                                                                              Neumann, David, 52
Johnson, Mr 21                                                                 New York Times, The, 44
Jones Thelma Hendrixson,    10, 27                                             0
Justice, Department of, 3, 33                                            .-.   Organization and Planning Committee,     33
K                                                                              Overseas branches, GAO, 29
Kane, Owen A Jr 17, 21, 41                                                     P
Keller< Robert F., IV, 1, 2: 7, 8, 10, 15-17, 18, 20, 2122, 23, 26, 27. 29:    Page, Thad, 2
   30 31, 32.33 34, 35.38, 39, 41,43, 44, 47, 48, 50. 52. 53, 54. 55           Peace Corps, 42
Klutz. Jerrv. 43                                                               Pearson, Drew, 21
Konkkr, G;s, 13                                                                Pension Building, 5, 7. 18, 21, 23, 24
Kopelson, Laura, 48                                                            Philadelphia Plan, 33
L                                                                              Pierson, Richard, 35
Laslca, SoDhronla, 8, 14                                                       Prato, Julia, 9
Law I-ibrary, 8                                                                Prescott. Wallace, 3 7. 8
Law ljchool Admt.won Test (LSAT). 14                                           Press contacts, 21, 22
Lawyers, recruiting of, 35     ’      ”                                        Procurement     Commission, 35
Lawyers, status at GAO, 22~23                                                  Procurement     Section, 10
Legal Reference Section (GAO) IV, 26, 31, 45                                   Public Information, Office of 48
Legislative attorneys, 20-21                                                   R
Legtslative Digest Unit 24, 53
                                                                               Railroad land grants, 11
Leglslatlve histories, 46-47. 57                                               Reader’s Digest, 43
Legislative Liaison. Office of, 40-41
Legislative Reference Services, 27                                             Reaudit Section 13
Legislative Section, 10                                                        Reconclllatlon  and Clearance Division, 15
Leglslatlve Unit, 9, 18, 20                                                    Reconstruction   Finance Corporation (RFC) 19
Levenstein, William, 14                                                        Records, GAO, 25
Little, Mary Jane. 9                                                           Recruiting (personnel), 25-27, 35
Lobbying bill, 39                                                              Reorganization   of 1951-l 952, 53
Lowe, \Jlctor L., 55, 56                                                       Reorganization   of 1972. 33-34
                                                                               Robbins, Hugh. 9
M                                                                              Roorley, Miriam, 14
Macfarlane, Archibald, 3                                                       Roosevelt, President Franklin D., 2
Macfartane, Margaret L iv. 1-3, 7-10, 20, 21, 22, 37, 46, 48, 55, 56           Rubar Geraldine M iv, 3-6, IO, 1 l-15. 24-25, 39-40, 5556
   57,58          -                                                            Rumlzen, Robert, 7
Maritrme Act 47                                                                Ryder Blanche, 9
Maritime Commission     2
Martini, John, 7                                                               S
Mas:,ey, Mr., 15                                                               Saigon, 12
Masterson, James 9                                                             Saint LOUIS Post Dispatch, The, 44
Mead, Kenneth M.. 39                                                           Saturday Evening Post, The, 22
Media, GAO relatlonshlps  with, 43-44                                          Sawyer Roland, 43
Methuise, Gene, 43                                                             Scheibla, Shirley, 43
Miller. Eugene C 1                                                             Schumacher,    Virginia, 9
Mlllel, Otha, 34-35                                                            Secret Service, U.S., 42

                                                                                                                                           (continued)




                                                     Page 62
                                                      Index




Seton Hall University Law School, 14                                     U
Shallt, Sidney, 22                                                       Upward Moblllty Program,     37-38
Shea, Paul, 6, 7                                                         Utana Barge Lines, 42
Shea. Stella B IV 6-7 16-17 34. 54-55
                                                                         Y
Shipping Board, 2
                                                                         Vouchers,    5-6, 11
Shnltzer. IPaul. 9
Socolar, MIlton. 51, 53                                                  W
Southern Illmols, University of, 34                                      Wall Street Journal, -’ The 44
Special Investigations,  Office of, 28, 29                               War Department,      12
Special Rl?ports Section (Transportation),  15                           Warren era (1940-l 954), 17-25
Special Sludles and Analysis Sectlon IV, 35-37, 38, 39, 53, 57           Warren Lindsay C 8. 17-25, 30. 31, 38, 54
Special Siudies and Analysis Section, IV. 35-37.39.53 57                 Wartime accelerated      audit. 13
Spencer, Thaws, 10, 27                                                   Watchdog, The, 24, 49
Staats, Ellner B , 16 17, 32-37, 38 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 48, 50~51, 53,
                                                                         Weltret Frank H., 8, 18, 20. 21, 22. 28, 29, 31 32, 33, 38, 39, 41.42,
   54
                                                                            43, 45, 48, 50, 54
State Unrverslty of New York at Albany, 3
                                                                         Welch. J Edward (Jed), 51
Stevenson    Charles, 43
                                                                         Wertz, Milton E 7 18, 21
Strayer Business College, 2
                                                                         Western Freight Sectlon. 13
Support staff, 37
                                                                         Westfall, Ted B., 52-53
Supreme fCourt. 8 46, 47
                                                                         Westinghouse     contract, 31
T                                                                        Wilcox, Blanche Margason, 3, 8, 18, 20. 21, 50
Tennessee Law School 27                                                  Wilcox, Lestre, 27, 35
Testimony, 21, 39                                                        Wilkes Barre, PA, 6
Thomas, A Banks, 52                                                      Women at GAO, 19-20, 26-27, 50, 51 1 55-56
Threats to GAO, 18-l 9                                                   Woodward, Carol, 38
Tralnlng, ;!5-26                                                         World War I, 2
Transportation    audits, 5-6, 1 I-12                                    World War II, 1 1. 12, 23
Transportation    Dlvlsion, 1, 5. 10 1 i 15. 25, 26, 27, 34, 50, 52      Y
Transportatton    Sectlon, IV, 13
                                                                         vale University, 27
Trask. Rocjer R., v
                                                                         Yates, Frank LL.,23-24. 33, 49-50
Treasury,;~omptroller      of the, 45
                                                                         Yukon River, 42
Truman, President Harry S., 8. 21
                                                                         z
                                                                         “Zinc   stink,’ 28




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